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moderated Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug


 

I don't remember whether I've already reported this as a bug, but the welcome message is going out to NC members, which should not happen. Only actual group members should be privy to a group's welcome message, which may contain information that's not for the public.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

J,

I don't remember whether I've already reported this as a bug, but the
welcome message is going out to NC members, which should not happen.
Can you clarify a point for me, are these members or pending members?

That is, if you have a restricted group and you haven't approved their membership yet then I agree, NC status should not cause the Welcome to go out before approval.

If the group is restricted and you've approved the membership request (or if the group is unrestricted) then I think the question of whether they should be privy to the group's messages, including its welcome message, has already been answered in the affirmative by your approval of their membership request.

Shal


 

There exist restricted groups with no real restrictions - that is, the group is technically restricted and needs to approve memberships, but actually accepts any email address that applies. In those cases the welcome message should not go to out to NC members. And of course it should not go out to NC members in non-restricted groups, either.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 06:08 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
If the group is restricted and you've approved the membership request (or if the group is unrestricted) then I think the question of whether they should be privy to the group's messages, including its welcome message, has already been answered in the affirmative by your approval of their membership request.
And by the way, this  ^^^ just bolsters my previous argument that restricted groups should automatically confirm members when they approve them, rather than having it be a premium feature:
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/topic/72079353

Either restricted groups should automatically confirm members upon their approval, OR, if not, the NC members should not receive the welcome message or anything else that bona fide, confirmed members are privy to.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 08:28 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
There exist restricted groups with no real restrictions - that is, the group is technically restricted and needs to approve memberships, but actually accepts any email address that applies. In those cases the welcome message should not go to out to NC members. And of course it should not go out to NC members in non-restricted groups, either.
I don't see that it makes any difference.  The NC is related to their account, not their membership.  If they become a member, automatically (unrestricted) or approved (restricted), it should be sent to them.  I do see where it makes no sense to send it (on either type of group) if they haven't confirmed their email address though.

Duane


 

I agree with Duane. My point was that in essence, Shal is arguing that restricted groups should be allowed to confirm their members upon approval, but without removing the N.C. That’s like trying to have it both ways. Either let non-premium restricted groups confirm their own members upon approval, as premium groups do, including removing the N.C., or treat unconfirmed members in every way as if they’re not yet in the group, which is the whole idea behind confirmation (I.e., don’t make them privy to member information until they’re confirned(.

Confirmation is not strictly a function of the account if the member applies to a group via email. They still have to confirm in that case, even if they already have an account.


On May 3, 2020, at 7:44 PM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 08:28 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
There exist restricted groups with no real restrictions - that is, the group is technically restricted and needs to approve memberships, but actually accepts any email address that applies. In those cases the welcome message should not go to out to NC members. And of course it should not go out to NC members in non-restricted groups, either.
I don't see that it makes any difference.  The NC is related to their account, not their membership.  If they become a member, automatically (unrestricted) or approved (restricted), it should be sent to them.  I do see where it makes no sense to send it (on either type of group) if they haven't confirmed their email address though.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Chris Jones
 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 03:43 AM, Duane wrote:
I do see where it makes no sense to send it (on either type of group) if they haven't confirmed their email address though.
IMHO there is another anomalous factor in play. The group I co - own has on occasions admitted members who have not responded to the Confirmation Message, but who have responded to the Pending Membership message. In sending that response they have confirmed their email address and the reason for joining, so the NC flag serves no useful ongoing purpose. I usually prompt them to positively respond to the Confirmation Email by firstly sending them a specific email about the point and then sending another Confirmation Email. At least I think I do; let me explain further. In the example cited above the email I send shows up (a) in the Activity Log (even if its content is not recorded) and (b) in the individual's Email Delivery History. The subsequent resending of the Confirmation Email shows up in the Activity Log but not in the Email Delivery History. I have just sent another Confirmation Email to such a member without a prior warning email; again it shows up in the Activity Log but not the Email Delivery History. 

It leaves me wondering whether these Confirmation Emails actually get sent. If the members responded to them I would know, but they don't; is the lack of response because (a) they cannot be bothered, or (b) because they didn't actually receive anything to respond to?

Chris


Duane
 

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 09:51 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Confirmation is not strictly a function of the account if the member applies to a group via email. They still have to confirm in that case, even if they already have an account.
NC is strictly a function of the account.  It's only needed once per account, regardless of the number of groups joined.  After confirming your email address this way, you do still need to verify that you want to join a group if you apply via email, but the pending/accepted member will not be NC.

Duane


 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 05:46 AM, Duane wrote:
After confirming your email address this way, you do still need to verify that you want to join a group if you apply via email, but the pending/accepted member will not be NC.
Nevertheless, if this is the first group someone is joining, and that group happens to be a premium restricted group, the group can confirm the member (INCLUDING removing the NC) by approving their membership. I have been arguing for some time that this should be true also for non-premium groups, because - as Shal implicitly argues in this thread - once a group approves someone's membership, that should also confirm them.

The fact that NC stands for "not confirmed," yet does not display even when a member HAS confirmed their interest in a second group, makes the situation even worse. 's the language that's the problem in this detail. It may even have been leading to a situation reported here as a bug recently (I think by you?) where the NC has not been appearing even though the member has not confirmed.

The entire NC display and confirmation process, including the language, is in need of a major overhaul IMO.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 04:19 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
The subsequent resending of the Confirmation Email shows up in the Activity Log but not in the Email Delivery History. I have just sent another Confirmation Email to such a member without a prior warning email; again it shows up in the Activity Log but not the Email Delivery History. 
Yes, yes, yes. I have reported this as a bug several times, and just did so again yesterday in a message to support. And that's just one problem among the many cited here. The confirmation process is a MESS.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 06:53 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
 NC stands for "not confirmed," yet does not display even when a member HAS confirmed their interest in a second group,
Typo with double negatives. Should read "yet does not display when a member not confirmed their interest in a second group even after having been asked to confirm"
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Maybe the situation could be revised along the following lines. Have an account status "unconfirmed account," which attaches to an email address and would display as UA. Have a separate status, which attaches to an email address and an individual group, called "unconfirmed membership," and which would display as UM in the particular group if the member has not confirmed their interest in that group. The possible combinations would have to be worked out but it seems to be pretty simple. "UA" displays only if the member has not confirmed their membership in any group. If the member has confirmed for a single group, nothing displays in that group, but "UM" may display in a second group if they apply to the group via email and do not confirm. Etc.

In a premium restricted group (and, I have argued, and Shal implicitly argues here, in any group), once a member is approved for that group, (1) the account is confirmed and UA never appears for that email address in any group, and (2) the membership is confired and UM does not appear in the particular group. In other words, the group confirms its own members.

I think the main problem is the overlaying of the term "confirmed" to apply to both the account and to a particular group membership.

If a group resends a confirmation email, it could be labelled instead "resend group confirmation email" and recorded in the email delivery history as such (right now, as Chris and I have noticed, it is not recorded there at all, but that seems to be a simple oversight).

Etc. There are undoubtedly more details to be worked out, but the main thing would be to separate, in language, actions, and displays, confirmation or non-confirmation of an account vs of membership in a group.

And I also argue (again) that basic as well as premium groups should confirm their own members upon approval if a group is restricted. I can see no real basis for making this a premium/paid feature.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 09:26 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I think the main problem is the overlaying of the term "confirmed" to apply to both the account and to a particular group membership.
Yes, that's why I earlier used Confirm for the account and Verify for the group.  Might be worth changing the wording in the email sent when attempting to join a group to clarify the two.

Duane


 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 07:39 AM, Duane wrote:
that's why I earlier used Confirm for the account and Verify for the group. 
Missed that but I 100% agree with you.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 07:39 AM, Duane wrote:
Might be worth changing the wording in the email
Also the displays and badges, as I mentioned.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

And further, don't send any group-member-specific emails - including the Welcome message - to any unconfirmed or unverified members, even if approved. If you want to send member-specific content to approved members, then allow the group, even if basic, to also automatically confirm the member.


On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 7:44 AM J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 07:39 AM, Duane wrote:
Might be worth changing the wording in the email
Also the displays and badges, as I mentioned.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Chris Jones
 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 12:19 PM, I wrote:
I have just sent another Confirmation Email to such a member without a prior warning email; again it shows up in the Activity Log but not the Email Delivery History. 

It leaves me wondering whether these Confirmation Emails actually get sent.
And lo and behold not long after the above the member concerned did respond and the NC flag has vanished. So was the earlier Confirmation Email delivered and ignored or was it not delivered?

The mystery deepens...

Chris


 

On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 02:51 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
And lo and behold not long after the above the member concerned did respond and the NC flag has vanished. So was the earlier Confirmation Email delivered and ignored or was it not delivered?
This usually happens with my group, too. Hard to say. Contacting the pending member outside the system usually yields no conclusion. Often, I email Mark at support to complain about an NC, yet very known-to-me, member (this is for my non-premium group - in my premium group, we are allowed to confirm them, although I don't think there should be this distinction), and a couple of days later, the NC is gone with no explanation. So then I tell Mark to ignore the email. Happens over and over again.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

And I have another one just this morning. Received and replied to the pending message, so I know she's getting and responding to emails. Is NC and there's no record of the confirmation email having gone out, although of course it may have gone out prior to the pending notification, but only the latter is logged. I will send (and probably resend, and resend again) the confirmation email and hope for the best.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Resent the confirmation email. It shows in the activity log but does not show in her email delivery history. So that's a definite bug, and probably just a logging bug.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu