Trying to add member notice with existing type and name fails to issue warning, does nothing, navigates poorly #bug


 

If you try to create a new Member Notice of the same type and name of one that already exists, the system does nothing to allay or notify you of your stupidity. It simply lets you compose the notice and click on "Add Notice," does nothing, and then takes you back not to the Member Notices page but to your list of groups.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

J,

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:49 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
If you try to create a new Member Notice of the same type and name of one that already exists, the system does nothing to allay or notify you of your stupidity. It simply lets you compose the notice and click on "Add Notice," does nothing, and then takes you back not to the Member Notices page but to your list of groups.

We don't restrict member notices by type/name. You should be able to create as many welcome notices with the name Welcome as you like, for example...

Mark 


 

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 04:06 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
You should be able to create as many welcome notices with the name Welcome as you like, for example...
Mark,

I just tried this again in my test group. It is indeed allowing the duplicates (whether it should or shouldn't is another question - I don't think it should, because how are you supposed to tell them apart in the list?), but it's making them all "active." My test group now has six active welcome messages!
https://groups.io/g/CatladysTestGroup/membernotices
Is this the intent? Are all five of them sent out when someone joins the group? I would actually love it if we could have multiple active messages of the same type, so that I could send out more than one standard message at given points in time. But I don't think that's supposed to happen. Right?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 04:25 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
all five of them
oops - all six of them - didn't update this after creating the 6th one ;)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 4:25 PM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I just tried this again in my test group. It is indeed allowing the duplicates (whether it should or shouldn't is another question - I don't think it should, because how are you supposed to tell them apart in the list?), but it's making them all "active." My test group now has six active welcome messages!
https://groups.io/g/CatladysTestGroup/membernotices
Is this the intent? Are all five of them sent out when someone joins the group? I would actually love it if we could have multiple active messages of the same type, so that I could send out more than one standard message at given points in time. But I don't think that's supposed to happen. Right?
 
You can have multiple active welcome messages. 


Mark


 

Wow, that’s amazing! All this time I had no idea. :-( I’m going to start using that feature in my real group! Thanks! 


On Oct 6, 2021, at 4:29 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:


On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 4:25 PM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I just tried this again in my test group. It is indeed allowing the duplicates (whether it should or shouldn't is another question - I don't think it should, because how are you supposed to tell them apart in the list?), but it's making them all "active." My test group now has six active welcome messages!
https://groups.io/g/CatladysTestGroup/membernotices
Is this the intent? Are all five of them sent out when someone joins the group? I would actually love it if we could have multiple active messages of the same type, so that I could send out more than one standard message at given points in time. But I don't think that's supposed to happen. Right?
 
You can have multiple active welcome messages. 


Mark

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

I'll post a message to Nina in docs, because this is what's currently documented (bold added):

"Select this checkbox if you want to make this notice the Active Message for this notice type—that is, the message that is sent automatically at the time of its corresponding event.

Note: 

  • Only one notice of each type can be the Active Message at any given time.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Mark,
I haven't tested this yet, but can you also have multiple active notices for the other types, or is that just for the welcome message?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

>>> You can have multiple active welcome messages.

TIL, I didn't know that either.  I thought one would be enough, but I guess I can see how having multiple ones could be useful if one wanted let's say to segregate the single welcome message to multiple ones, one per area/functionality/etc, for example have one that gave info on the message-posting rules, another for the Files, another for Wiki, etc, so this way one didn't have a very long single welcome message go out.

The question then becomes, in what order are these sent out, and can that order be controlled or influenced by the admin?  And I guess the same question goes for the rest of the notice types as well, if multiples for those are also allowed.

Cheers,
Christos


 

I love the fact that I can use multiple welcome messages. And I don't give a whit what order they're sent out in. But the documentation needs to be changed. And i'd like to know the purpose of multiples in any case except the welcome. Why have, or even allow, multiple "removed" or "banned" or "good-bye" messages? I also think they should be required to have different names. Otherwise they're impossible to tell apart in the list.

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 5:38 PM Christos Psarras <christos@...> wrote:
>>> You can have multiple active welcome messages.

TIL, I didn't know that either.  I thought one would be enough, but I guess I can see how having multiple ones could be useful if one wanted let's say to segregate the single welcome message to multiple ones, one per area/functionality/etc, for example have one that gave info on the message-posting rules, another for the Files, another for Wiki, etc, so this way one didn't have a very long single welcome message go out.

The question then becomes, in what order are these sent out, and can that order be controlled or influenced by the admin?  And I guess the same question goes for the rest of the notice types as well, if multiples for those are also allowed.

Cheers,
Christos


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Mark,

There is definitely a bug, or multiple bugs, here. I've been experimenting around. Sometimes when you add a new notice, the notice does not get added even after you click on "add notice" at the bottom, and you get taken back to your list of groups (not even to the member notice list) - this is the bad navigation I mentioned in the OP. It happens sometimes and not others - I made it happen multiple times tonight by trying to add a Banned message to my test group. Sometimes when you add a new notice, it defaults to active. Sometimes it does not. Some notices allow multiple actives, some don't. I have not thoroughly tested or tabulated all of these cases but there are some major inconsistencies and problems here.

Beyond that, as I mentioned, it makes no sense to have multiple active pending message notices, removed notices, etc. etc. etc.

And also, what is the purpose of a name if not to identify a notice (distinguish it from others) in the list? So allowing identical names for identical notice types does not make sense to me.

I can try to find time to go through all the cases and figure out what's going on but that seems like a major project. Meanwhile if I find anything actually reproducible under specific circumstances I can let you know.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 07:57 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Why have, or even allow, multiple "removed" or "banned" or "good-bye" messages? I also think they should be required to have different names. Otherwise they're impossible to tell apart in the list.
For all the types I tested, any other than Welcome can only have one active (or none in the case of Message to Member).  I give them different Names when I create them so I know what they're for.  If I forget to change it, I can go back and update it.  For example, as Rejected I have several canned responses, a couple of which are named Wrong Group and Contact.  I've chosen not to set one of them active so that I have the option of choosing the most fitting when I reject a message.

Duane


 

Ok, here is a confirmed, reproducible bug, with all the details: In my test group, I have a current Banned Member notice, with "name not set." I try to add another Banned Member notice with name "Banned Member." The system lets me create the notice (with, by the way, "Active" not checked by default - this is inconsistent with adding Welcome notices, where "Active" is the default) and it lets me click on "Add Notice" at the bottom. The log logs the creation of the notice. But (1) the notice does not actually get added, and (2) after clicking on "Add Notice," I'm taken not back to the list of notices but to my list of groups, complete outside the group in question.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Hi J,

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 8:09 PM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Ok, here is a confirmed, reproducible bug, with all the details: In my test group, I have a current Banned Member notice, with "name not set." I try to add another Banned Member notice with name "Banned Member." The system lets me create the notice (with, by the way, "Active" not checked by default - this is inconsistent with adding Welcome notices, where "Active" is the default) and it lets me click on "Add Notice" at the bottom. The log logs the creation of the notice. But (1) the notice does not actually get added, and (2) after clicking on "Add Notice," I'm taken not back to the list of notices but to my list of groups, complete outside the group in question.

I think I have fixed this. Please check it and let me know.

Thanks,
Mark 


 

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 7:17 PM Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

For all the types I tested, any other than Welcome can only have one active (or none in the case of Message to Member). 

All member notice types can have only one active, with two exceptions: the welcome message and monthly reminders.

Thanks,
Mark 


 

On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 08:37 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I think I have fixed this. Please check it and let me know.
Mark,

I am very sorry to tell you this, but there are now other weirdnesses! I just tried again to create a new Banned notice in my test group. Here is what happened:

1. (a) There are now TWO Banned notices, listed as at the same time (same timestamp, a couple of minutes ago), one with name "Banned Member" (which was the correct name - the name I left in place as the default) and another with name "Banned."
    (b) Despite the (alleged) two new notices, there is only log entry for my having created a new notice.

2. My original, pre-test Banned notice, with "name not set," and creation date a long time ago, has disappeared.

3. (a) The default, upon creation of the message, was that the Active box was checked. This is different from yesterday, when I reported the bug. At that time, it defaulted to unchecked.
    (b) Yet despite the default, both "new" notices were created as not active.

The good news is that the navigation is fixed.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 08:38 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
monthly reminders.
I think I've been MIA. I never knew we had "monthly reminder" notices! That and multiple active welcome messages is going to make my life much easier.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Hi J,

On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 8:55 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I am very sorry to tell you this, but there are now other weirdnesses! I just tried again to create a new Banned notice in my test group. Here is what happened:

1. (a) There are now TWO Banned notices, listed as at the same time (same timestamp, a couple of minutes ago), one with name "Banned Member" (which was the correct name - the name I left in place as the default) and another with name "Banned."
    (b) Despite the (alleged) two new notices, there is only log entry for my having created a new notice.

2. My original, pre-test Banned notice, with "name not set," and creation date a long time ago, has disappeared.

What happened is that member notices really shouldn't have an empty name ("name not set"). That bug was fixed last December. When you added the new member notice, we went in and updated the old member notice, giving it a name ("Banned"). That changed the updated date on the notice (which was labeled 'Date' on the Member Notices page, but I've now changed that to 'Updated'). Confused? Make sense?

 
3. (a) The default, upon creation of the message, was that the Active box was checked. This is different from yesterday, when I reported the bug. At that time, it defaulted to unchecked.
    (b) Yet despite the default, both "new" notices were created as not active.

I just fixed this bug.

Thanks,
Mark 


 

Mark,

Thanks. All of that makes perfect sense! I suspected something like that, except for the creation timestamp. 

A couple of suggestions at this point:

1. Figure out whether, and when, Active should be the default. Should it be consistently one way or the other, or should it be the default only if this is the first message of that type being created, etc? In particular, I would not continue to have it be the default in the cases where multiple active noticed are allowed. I think most users will not understand that if they create what (to them) is simply a new, or alternative, welcome notice, for example, it actually gets ADDED to any existing active one(s) and ALL are sent out as welcome messages. (I love the ability to do this. But it came as a shock to me.) Minimum, I would  add some explanation to the Active checkbox in those cases.

2. What is the purpose of a name, if it’s not an identifier, something that sets the notice apart from others of its same type? It makes no sense to me to allow multiple notices of the same type with identical names, and I would have the system reject those.


On Oct 7, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:


Hi J,

On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 8:55 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I am very sorry to tell you this, but there are now other weirdnesses! I just tried again to create a new Banned notice in my test group. Here is what happened:

1. (a) There are now TWO Banned notices, listed as at the same time (same timestamp, a couple of minutes ago), one with name "Banned Member" (which was the correct name - the name I left in place as the default) and another with name "Banned."
    (b) Despite the (alleged) two new notices, there is only log entry for my having created a new notice.

2. My original, pre-test Banned notice, with "name not set," and creation date a long time ago, has disappeared.

What happened is that member notices really shouldn't have an empty name ("name not set"). That bug was fixed last December. When you added the new member notice, we went in and updated the old member notice, giving it a name ("Banned"). That changed the updated date on the notice (which was labeled 'Date' on the Member Notices page, but I've now changed that to 'Updated'). Confused? Make sense?

 
3. (a) The default, upon creation of the message, was that the Active box was checked. This is different from yesterday, when I reported the bug. At that time, it defaulted to unchecked.
    (b) Yet despite the default, both "new" notices were created as not active.

I just fixed this bug.

Thanks,
Mark 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

>>> what order are these sent out

Did some testing, and for whoever is interested and wants to control in what order the welcome notices are sent out, they are emailed oldest to newest, or same order shown onscreen if you sort on Updated ascending.

Cheers,
Christos


 

Mark,

One observation, I don't know if the notice list screen is supposed to remember what column sort the user has selected, but no matter what sort one selects, after updating or deleting a notice the list reverts back to the default sort of Type-Ascending.  Or alternatively, the parameter list displayed on the URL when one selects a column sort is not remembered or retained after notice update or delete.

Cheers,
Christos