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locked The Biggest Deal Breaker -- Database #suggestion


Nightowl >8#
 
Edited

Mark,

I've been in touch with the young people who had the 130,000 member network that they wound up deleting on Yahoo. They were unable to use it anymore because NEO had screwed up the database.

These kids, teenagers and twenty-somethings, had a network across the continent, and mobilized in the thousands against Yahoo NEO when it hit. I do not know if they understand how to use a wiki, but I do know that if you agree to implement a database feature, that is what they need the most.

They used the database feature to help each other with homework, set things up like events and tutoring, keep records, and more. Losing the database pretty much crippled their groups. Having a new place to come and use, that includes a database feature would be just what they need.

And they aren't the only ones...I can get you a lot of people whose groups were ruined because of the database being broken in Yahoo.

Maybe you could start a database poll in here or something, but I assure you, the biggest deal breaker for people wanting to leave Yahoo, was there was no database feature offered.

I hope that you will take this under serious consideration.

Thanks,

Brenda


Judy F.
 

Brenda, we keep talking about a Database, then someone says something about Wiki.  What are we really talking about?  I’m used to the database feature in Yahoo Groups.  Is that what you are wanting?  If yes, I’m for it also since a lot of the sewing/quilting/embroidery groups use the database feature to get information from their members.  Example: I have a database set up for members to provide their name, location, type of machine they have, what embroidery programs they have.  This helps others if they need to contact someone that has a machine that they do. 

 

Same with Polls.  There hasn’t been much talk about those either.

 

Judy F.

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Feathered Leader [mailto:featheredleader@...]
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 11:34 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: [beta] The Biggest Deal Breaker -- Database #suggestions

 

Mark,

I've been in touch with the young people who had the 130,000 member network that they wound up deleting on Yahoo. They were unable to use it anymore because NEO had screwed up the database.

These kids, teenagers and twenty-somethings, had a network across the continent, and mobilized in the thousands against Yahoo NEO when it hit. I do not know if they understand how to use a wiki, but I do know that if you agree to implement a database feature, that is what they need the most.

They used the database feature to help each other with homework, set things up like vents and tutoring, keep records, and more. Losing the database pretty much crippled their groups. Having a new place to come and use, that includes a database feature would be just what they need.

And they aren't the only ones...I can get you a lot of people whose groups were ruined because of the database being broken in Yahoo.

Maybe you could start a database poll in here or something, but I assure you, the biggest deal breaker for people wanting to leave Yahoo, was there was no database offeredI hope

I hope that you will take this under serious consideration.

Thanks,

Brenda


Nightowl >8#
 

Mark,

One other thing. The kids/young adults have just started a group on here to test it out. You can find that group here:

https://groups.io/org/groupsio/CorysHouse

Brenda


Nightowl >8#
 

Judy,

You can put tables and things in a wiki, but if you don't understand how to use it, like I don't, it's not as easy to use.

Polls are on the TO DO list. Mark just hasn't decided I guess, on whether we can have a database instead of a wiki, or both. But I'll count you as the first vote for the database feature.

Now lets gather a lot more! Your post is a perfect example of what I'm looking for. Tell Mark in here what you use the database for, and hopefully if we get enough votes or people to tell him we want it here, maybe he'll make it for us. :)

Brenda



 

Add me in as a second vote for a database.

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Feathered Leader <featheredleader@...> wrote:

Judy,

You can put tables and things in a wiki, but if you don't understand how to use it, like I don't, it's not as easy to use.

Polls are on the TO DO list. Mark just hasn't decided I guess, on whether we can have a database instead of a wiki, or both. But I'll count you as the first vote for the database feature.

Now lets gather a lot more! Your post is a perfect example of what I'm looking for. Tell Mark in here what you use the database for, and hopefully if we get enough votes or people to tell him we want it here, maybe he'll make it for us. :)

Brenda




 

Brenda (and Mark),
I vote for a database facility. Mainly because I think I know what that is. A 'wiki'? I know what wikipedia is but beyond that I really don't know what a 'wiki' is in the context of 'groups'!
Regards,
Robertm

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the O2 network.
From: Feathered Leader
Sent: Sunday, 25 January 2015 07:40
To: beta@groups.io
Reply To: beta@groups.io
Subject: [beta] Re: The Biggest Deal Breaker -- Database #suggestions

Judy,

You can put tables and things in a wiki, but if you don't understand how to use it, like I don't, it's not as easy to use.

Polls are on the TO DO list. Mark just hasn't decided I guess, on whether we can have a database instead of a wiki, or both. But I'll count you as the first vote for the database feature..

Now lets gather a lot more! Your post is a perfect example of what I'm looking for. Tell Mark in here what you use the database for, and hopefully if we get enough votes or people to tell him we want it here, maybe he'll make it for us. :)

Brenda




David P. Dillard
 

I certainly agree that it makes lots of sense to keep the database feature seperate from the Wiki feature and to make the database tool like what folks are used to on Yahoo Groups of old with improvements seen to make it better.

However one need not fear using the Wiki feature on Groups IO as it works just like Wordpress and Google Sites, both of which I find very easy to use for simple text and linked documents.

One can easily build content on a Word document or its equivalent and simply paste this preformated content including hyperlinked text and color from the Word document or other source right into the Wiki and it works just fine.


Here is a link to the page I just created:


https://groups.io/org/groupsio/Net-Gold/ wiki/Articles-Published-by-David-Dillard


OR


http://tinyurl.com/mo99vzl


Warning, I use content pages like this Wiki to share information, not to create artistic and beautifully designed websites. Others will need to teach these skills if they are applicable to this Wiki.

Furthermore, there is only one WAVE accessibility error for the documment I created, which is excellent. WAVE seems to want a title above the black bar and in checking on edit I could not find a way to put a title there.
If anyone knows how to do this, I am all eyes (this being a print rather than audio media).



Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@...

On Sun, 25 Jan 2015, @trishm wrote:

Add me in as a second vote for a database.
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Feathered Leader <featheredleader@...> wrote:

Judy,

You can put tables and things in a wiki, but if you don't understand how to use it, like I don't, it's not as easy to
use.

Polls are on the TO DO list. Mark just hasn't decided I guess, on whether we can have a database instead of a wiki,
or both. But I'll count you as the first vote for the database feature.

Now lets gather a lot more! Your post is a perfect example of what I'm looking for. Tell Mark in here what you use
the database for, and hopefully if we get enough votes or people to tell him we want it here, maybe he'll make it for
us. :)

Brenda


 

Judy,

Brenda, we keep talking about a Database, then someone says something
about Wiki.
That started with Mark:
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/thread/15266

A few messages down that thread I tried to list some of the distinct features of Yahoo Groups' database, and databases generally, that might be difficult to achieve in a clear and facile way using a table on a Wiki page.

That said, I concur with the sentiment that Groups.io is not Yahoo Groups. I think Mark (and the rest of us) do need to think outside of that particular box from time to time so that we don't miss an opportunity to achieve some desired functionality in a much better way.

Some of the things people do with Yahoo Groups' features they do in a certain way because of Yahoo Groups' limitations. Rather than build the same limitations into Groups.io, it is a good idea to express the "why" and the context of what you're trying to achieve when proposing a feature. That way we can all try to understand it in a "big picture" way.

-- Shal


Judy F.
 

Thanks Brenda, since I explained what the database is used for on the various craft type groups yesterday, I  hate to repeat myself again.  I will be more than happy to go into as much detail as necessary so Mark understands why it is important to have a database.  I have mentioned before that a lot of the groups have a lot of members that are very limited in their computer skills and once they learn something, they have a hard time adjusting to something new, i.e. Neo.  I know you are aware of this also.  

 

You definitely have my vote on the database and if I could vote numerous times, I would.  LOL  I’m hoping we can keep these things simple so people will see how much better groups.io is than the other. 

 

Judy F.

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Feathered Leader [mailto:featheredleader@...]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 2:40 AM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: [beta] Re: The Biggest Deal Breaker -- Database #suggestions

 

Judy,

You can put tables and things in a wiki, but if you don't understand how to use it, like I don't, it's not as easy to use.

Polls are on the TO DO list. Mark just hasn't decided I guess, on whether we can have a database instead of a wiki, or both. But I'll count you as the first vote for the database feature.

Now lets gather a lot more! Your post is a perfect example of what I'm looking for. Tell Mark in here what you use the database for, and hopefully if we get enough votes or people to tell him we want it here, maybe he'll make it for us. :)

Brenda

 


Judy F.
 

David, as I stated in my other note, we have a lot of members that know very
little about the computer and groups. What you are saying is probably great
if everyone knows how to use Wordpress and Google sites, etc. It's also
easy for any of us to say something is 'easy' to use because we know how to
use it.

The member loss on most groups was the change from Yahoo Groups classic to
Neo. These people were comfortable with what they had and the terminology
and then Neo came along and not only did they change the entire format, but
also changed the terminology. Most of those people just couldn't handle it.
Now I'm not saying that's the case with everyone, but I do know it was with
a large number of them.

Before everyone yells at me that you can't always keep the old things, I'm
well aware of that. I am one of the first Yahoo Groups members that got hit
with Neo in August 2013 so I struggled through all of the mess. I will add
here, if it hadn't been for the User Group that Shal has, I would have given
up in September 2013. LOL

Judy F.
SW Florida - USA

-----Original Message-----
From: David P. Dillard [mailto:jwne@...]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 9:31 AM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Re: The Biggest Deal Breaker -- Database #suggestions



I certainly agree that it makes lots of sense to keep the database feature
seperate from the Wiki feature and to make the database tool like what folks
are used to on Yahoo Groups of old with improvements seen to make it better.

However one need not fear using the Wiki feature on Groups IO as it works
just like Wordpress and Google Sites, both of which I find very easy to use
for simple text and linked documents.

One can easily build content on a Word document or its equivalent and simply
paste this preformated content including hyperlinked text and color from the
Word document or other source right into the Wiki and it works just fine.


Here is a link to the page I just created:


https://groups.io/org/groupsio/Net-Gold/
wiki/Articles-Published-by-David-Dillard


OR


http://tinyurl.com/mo99vzl


Warning, I use content pages like this Wiki to share information, not to
create artistic and beautifully designed websites. Others will need to
teach these skills if they are applicable to this Wiki.

Furthermore, there is only one WAVE accessibility error for the documment
I created, which is excellent. WAVE seems to want a title above the black
bar and in checking on edit I could not find a way to put a title there.
If anyone knows how to do this, I am all eyes (this being a print rather
than audio media).



Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@...


On Sun, 25 Jan 2015, @trishm wrote:

Add me in as a second vote for a database.

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Feathered Leader
<featheredleader@...> wrote:

Judy,

You can put tables and things in a wiki, but if you don't understand
how to use it, like I don't, it's not as easy to
use.

Polls are on the TO DO list. Mark just hasn't decided I guess, on
whether we can have a database instead of a wiki,
or both. But I'll count you as the first vote for the database
feature.

Now lets gather a lot more! Your post is a perfect example of what
I'm looking for. Tell Mark in here what you use
the database for, and hopefully if we get enough votes or people to
tell him we want it here, maybe he'll make it for
us. :)

Brenda






 

I agree with Shal. I would be very disappointed if Groups.io became limited by what Yahoo Groups was. Bringing groups over from Yahoo groups would provide a short term boost for the site, but in the longer term Groups.io needs to develop into its own service.

One point worth remembering is that Yahoo Groups made the decision to drop the database feature, presumably based on metrics of its use. Now this doesn't automatically mean that this was a good decision - even if only a small number of groups are affected, perhaps these were some of the most important groups on the site.

However, it's worth considering a few points:

  1. In most cases, the admins maintain the databases, and don't need to provide edit access to normal members. An external service could work well in this scenario.
  2. Yahoo groups doesn't offer the databases feature any more, so Groups.io doesn't necessarily need to offer this feature to convince people to switch over as long as it is better than Yahoo groups in other ways. Groups.io definitely is better in many ways.
  3. Wikis provide much of the same features. If Mark adds features like sorting, then this would close most of the gap. Some people have more trouble adapting to technological change than others, but if they need a feature enough, they are likely to learn how to use it.
  4. Once the feature is added, it needs to be maintained. Further, removing a feature that has been added will annoy a large number of users and reduce the trust of user's who don't even use that feature because a feature that they need may be removed in the future. Therefore, it seems that if a database feature were to be added, it should only be added when it becomes clear that such a feature is necessary. The Wiki will work well for most small groups, larger groups are more likely to need the specific functions of the database. Since there aren't large groups on Groups.io, this need isn't clear.
  5. A generic API would solve this use case and so many others.
  6. Re the alternative of spicing up the Wiki: The ability to sort tables in a Wiki is cool, even there was a separate database feature as well, so the effort of going down this path wouldn't be wasted.

For all these reasons, I'd strongly recommend against implementing a database feature at a current time.


Duane
 

Chris,

I have to disagree with your point #1. On the Yahoo groups I was on, many with 1000 members or more, the databases were mostly updated by users. They could have been maintained by an owner/moderator, but that would have created more work for them. I found out how important this was when I started alternative groups on another service. Users will send me updates, I integrate them into the file, and upload the new version. When updates are frequent, it takes a lot of time.

I've done some testing to see if a Wiki page would work, but it's somewhat limited and not very intuitive. It looks to me like it would get clumsy after more than a few entries were needed.

Duane


 

I fully agree with you, Duane. There may be a place for this 'wiki' thing for those that like faffing about with such things, but many groups will need a database in the traditional sense.

Robert.

-----Original Message-----
From: Duane
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 3:14 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: [beta] Re: The Biggest Deal Breaker -- Database #suggestions

Chris,

I have to disagree with your point #1. On the Yahoo groups I was on, many with 1000 members or more, the databases were mostly updated by users. They could have been maintained by an owner/moderator, but that would have created more work for them. I found out how important this was when I started alternative groups on another service. Users will send me updates, I integrate them into the file, and upload the new version. When updates are frequent, it takes a lot of time.

I've done some testing to see if a Wiki page would work, but it's somewhat limited and not very intuitive. It looks to me like it would get clumsy after more than a few entries were needed.

Duane


 

David,

I clicked on your tiny url link and got taken to a blank page, even though the url appeared to be the same as the full url in your message.  Now, I understand what my friend from the Yahoo group is seeing.  This is the first time it has happened to me with groups.io.

Donna



Frances
 

David and Donna

The links don’t work for me either - blank pages.

I am using an updated Mac with Safari.

Frances

On Jan 26 15, at 10:44 AM, Donna <pnwfemale@...> wrote:

David,

I clicked on your tiny url link and got taken to a blank page, even though the url appeared to be the same as the full url in your message.  Now, I understand what my friend from the Yahoo group is seeing.  This is the first time it has happened to me with groups.io.

Donna




Duane
 

To see a Wiki, you'd need to be a member of the group and signed in.

Duane


David P. Dillard
 

I just learned that while my group is public, the wiki is not listed on group contents when accessed by anyone who is not logged in to my group as a member of my group. The option needs to be made available to group owners to make the Wiki public if so desired. I will only be able to use this tool if it is public.




Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@...

On Mon, 26 Jan 2015, Donna wrote:

David,
I clicked on your tiny url link and got taken to a blank page, even though the url appeared to be the same as the
full url in your message.  Now, I understand what my friend from the Yahoo group is seeing.  This is the first time
it has happened to me with groups.io.
Donna


 

On 1/26/2015 8:51 AM, Frances wrote:

The links don’t work for me either - blank pages.
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/Net-Gold/wiki/Articles-Published-by-David-Dillard
OR
http://tinyurl.com/mo99vzl
Same here - HPW7.

dg


 

On 1/26/2015 8:59 AM, Duane wrote:
To see a Wiki, you'd need to be a member of the group and signed in.
Ah - it's the "member of the group" part that I think most of us are
missing (since it prompts for a sign in if you are not).

A blank page is probably not very user-friendly if we're confused by
not seeing it!

If there is a direct link to a wiki given - should it say something
like "you are not a member of <groupname>"? Or just a "content is
not available" with a link to the Groups.io home page?

Or just take you to the Groups.io home page?

dg


Nightowl >8#
 

No no, Yahoo Groups didn't drop the database feature. It has been there from the start and is still there. However, NEO broke it.

Just correcting that.

Brenda