moderated Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion


 

Shal,
Here is the connection between member payment and specific group - from Mark's original message in this thread:
"Once the free member slots are filled up, someone wishing to be a new member of the group would have to pay a yearly fee to Groups.io."

This creates a direct connection between a specific group, on the one hand, and a member having, or wanting, to get a paid membership, on the other.  And this is what I mean by the space warping around groups. People would not be just signing up for a yearly paid membership in groups.io, no matter what groups they want to join, and no matter whether or not those groups are "full." People would try to join a group, discover that it's at its limit, and THEN have to pay groups.io in order to join it. In all respects except technically, that's the same as someone paying to join a specific group.  

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

And on top of that, their neighbor in the next seat might have gotten in free. 


On Jan 12, 2021, at 12:38 PM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Shal,
Here is the connection between member payment and specific group - from Mark's original message in this thread:
"Once the free member slots are filled up, someone wishing to be a new member of the group would have to pay a yearly fee to Groups.io."

This creates a direct connection between a specific group, on the one hand, and a member having, or wanting, to get a paid membership, on the other.  And this is what I mean by the space warping around groups. People would not be just signing up for a yearly paid membership in groups.io, no matter what groups they want to join, and no matter whether or not those groups are "full." People would try to join a group, discover that it's at its limit, and THEN have to pay groups.io in order to join it. In all respects except technically, that's the same as someone paying to join a specific group.  

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

J,


This creates a direct connection between a specific group, on the one hand, and a member having, or wanting, to get a paid membership, on the other.  And this is what I mean by the space warping around groups.

Perhaps the gravity of the situation could be mitigated by the wording of the notice. It could say that unfortunately that group has no free slots available, but you can purchase a pass to join any group, including that one, ...
I think that's better than simply telling them "you cannot join because the group is full" and then letting them figure out how to contact someone, or if they should even bother. That's not just a warp, that's a brick wall*. Any response that suggests that they contact the group's owner would create a lot of extra work for the owner, which I I would rather avoid.


And on top of that, their neighbor in the next seat might have gotten in free. 

So?

Neither member would be aware of how the other got into the group, unless they got into gossiping. Yes, I understand the problem that some members might think that they've got stars upon thars, but the moral of that particular story is that there really isn't a difference.

Nor is it a problem really if everyone decides to buy themselves a star - more money for the guy with the star machine (whether that be the group owner, or Mark, depending on what someone thinks is a star).

Shal
*A conceptual relative to a black hole, except it keeps you out instead of keeping you in.


 

Wording does not solve this problem IMHO. It is what it is and everyone is going to find out what's really going on.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

p.s. You think people don't talk to each other? At least in the cats groups world, and no doubt in other universes as well, people are always yabbing to each other about which group they just joined, which group they recommend, etc.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Glenn Glazer
 

On 01/12/2021 14:40, J_Catlady wrote:
p.s. You think people don't talk to each other? At least in the cats groups world, and no doubt in other universes as well, people are always yabbing to each other about which group they just joined, which group they recommend, etc.
--
J

Relying on people to not conspire with each other is not a safe approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


 

Glenn gets it right here. And imagine the confusion, if not anger. “I just joined the xyz kitties group, it’s great, highly recommended.” They post this within another group, and members of that group start applying for membership in the fabulous xyz kitties group. But wait! “Hey, I just applied there and had to pay for some general groups.io membership!” “What are you talking about? That didn’t happen to me.” “ Maybe they are rejecting you?” Etc etc etc Multi-person conversation. 


On Jan 12, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 01/12/2021 14:40, J_Catlady wrote:
p.s. You think people don't talk to each other? At least in the cats groups world, and no doubt in other universes as well, people are always yabbing to each other about which group they just joined, which group they recommend, etc.
--
J

Relying on people to not conspire with each other is not a safe approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 03:20 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
They post this within another group, and members of that group start applying for membership in the fabulous xyz kitties group
And BTW, this happens all the time. It's one main way people find out about a lot of the cats groups.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Leeni
 

To add to that..........
"I am going to do a search for kitty groups and maybe I can join one for free. Why should I have to pay for XYZ Kitty group when there are others with probably many of the same members that I can join without paying anything." 
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 1/12/2021 5:20:29 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] Samuel's Paid User Proposal
 
Glenn gets it right here. And imagine the confusion, if not anger. “I just joined the xyz kitties group, it’s great, highly recommended.” They post this within another group, and members of that group start applying for membership in the fabulous xyz kitties group. But wait! “Hey, I just applied there and had to pay for some general groups.io membership!” “What are you talking about? That didn’t happen to me.” “ Maybe they are rejecting you?” Etc etc etc Multi-person conversation. 


On Jan 12, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 01/12/2021 14:40, J_Catlady wrote:
p.s. You think people don't talk to each other? At least in the cats groups world, and no doubt in other universes as well, people are always yabbing to each other about which group they just joined, which group they recommend, etc.
--
J

Relying on people to not conspire with each other is not a safe approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 


 

Leeni, I think that’s a slightly diffrent issue. People would be unable to join any group after it has reached its limit even under Mark’s proposal.it’s not a matter of paying to join the group or whether or not it’s free. It’s a subtle difference.


On Jan 12, 2021, at 3:43 PM, Leeni <leeniluvsgroups2@...> wrote:


To add to that..........
"I am going to do a search for kitty groups and maybe I can join one for free. Why should I have to pay for XYZ Kitty group when there are others with probably many of the same members that I can join without paying anything." 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 1/12/2021 5:20:29 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] Samuel's Paid User Proposal
 
Glenn gets it right here. And imagine the confusion, if not anger. “I just joined the xyz kitties group, it’s great, highly recommended.” They post this within another group, and members of that group start applying for membership in the fabulous xyz kitties group. But wait! “Hey, I just applied there and had to pay for some general groups.io membership!” “What are you talking about? That didn’t happen to me.” “ Maybe they are rejecting you?” Etc etc etc Multi-person conversation. 


On Jan 12, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 01/12/2021 14:40, J_Catlady wrote:
p.s. You think people don't talk to each other? At least in the cats groups world, and no doubt in other universes as well, people are always yabbing to each other about which group they just joined, which group they recommend, etc.
--
J

Relying on people to not conspire with each other is not a safe approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Leeni,


"I am going to do a search for kitty groups and maybe I can join one for free. Why should I have to pay for XYZ Kitty group when there are others with probably many of the same members that I can join without paying anything." 

To me, the alternative (Mark's Pricing Changes alone) does not seem preferable:

"I am going to do a search for kitty groups and maybe I can join one. Why should I have to wait around to see if  XYZ Kitty group ever has an opening when there are others with probably many of the same members that I can join that aren't full." 
At least with this Proposal the would-be member has the option.

Shal


 

I think the ability to pay your way through is worse. 


On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:14 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:


Leeni,


"I am going to do a search for kitty groups and maybe I can join one for free. Why should I have to pay for XYZ Kitty group when there are others with probably many of the same members that I can join without paying anything." 

To me, the alternative (Mark's Pricing Changes alone) does not seem preferable:

"I am going to do a search for kitty groups and maybe I can join one. Why should I have to wait around to see if  XYZ Kitty group ever has an opening when there are others with probably many of the same members that I can join that aren't full." 
At least with this Proposal the would-be member has the option.

Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Leeni
 

My mistake but in another situation with another group, something like that might happen if some groups had free slots left while other groups of the same nature didn't. Most people would look for the groups with free slots rather then pay to join a group.  
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 01/12/21 18:10:02
Subject: Re: [beta] Samuel's Paid User Proposal
 
Leeni, I think that’s a slightly diffrent issue. People would be unable to join any group after it has reached its limit even under Mark’s proposal.it’s not a matter of paying to join the group or whether or not it’s free. It’s a subtle difference.


On Jan 12, 2021, at 3:43 PM, Leeni <leeniluvsgroups2@...> wrote:


To add to that..........
"I am going to do a search for kitty groups and maybe I can join one for free. Why should I have to pay for XYZ Kitty group when there are others with probably many of the same members that I can join without paying anything." 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 1/12/2021 5:20:29 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] Samuel's Paid User Proposal
 
Glenn gets it right here. And imagine the confusion, if not anger. “I just joined the xyz kitties group, it’s great, highly recommended.” They post this within another group, and members of that group start applying for membership in the fabulous xyz kitties group. But wait! “Hey, I just applied there and had to pay for some general groups.io membership!” “What are you talking about? That didn’t happen to me.” “ Maybe they are rejecting you?” Etc etc etc Multi-person conversation. 


On Jan 12, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 01/12/2021 14:40, J_Catlady wrote:
p.s. You think people don't talk to each other? At least in the cats groups world, and no doubt in other universes as well, people are always yabbing to each other about which group they just joined, which group they recommend, etc.
--
J

Relying on people to not conspire with each other is not a safe approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 


 

What happens when a group’s member count is at its free limit, a member pays for a year’s worth of groups.io specifically to get into that group, and  a week, a day, or an hour later the group loses two members, bringimg its count down below the free limit? If this happened in a retail situation the store woukd honor the discounted price (I’m this case, zero). 

So it’s another potentially fraught refund situation. People are going to know that there is a charge precisely when a group reaches its free limit. The group’s member count is always displayed on the home page (and if the “free limit” is not also displayed, it will be a simple matter for midt to soon figure it out). So they are going to be aware that they paid to get in, the group has once again become “free,” and they are going to feel that they deserve a refund.


On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:14 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:


Leeni,


"I am going to do a search for kitty groups and maybe I can join one for free. Why should I have to pay for XYZ Kitty group when there are others with probably many of the same members that I can join without paying anything." 

To me, the alternative (Mark's Pricing Changes alone) does not seem preferable:

"I am going to do a search for kitty groups and maybe I can join one. Why should I have to wait around to see if  XYZ Kitty group ever has an opening when there are others with probably many of the same members that I can join that aren't full." 
At least with this Proposal the would-be member has the option.

Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

J,


What happens when a group’s member count is at its free limit, a member pays for a year’s worth of groups.io specifically to get into that group, and  a week, a day, or an hour later the group loses two members, bringimg its count down below the free limit?

In my opinion: no refunds. The site would say that before you pay (we're talking about $2.50 here).

Others have suggested that Groups.io have a generous no-questions-asked refund policy. I'm fine with that too.

Either way, if the member can't have (or doesn't request) a refund then in addition to membership in his/her desired group, the member gets the reassurance that the group owner has no motivation to kick him/her out to make a slot for someone else.

There might be some issue with how people find out that there is now a free slot, there could be a bit of a gold-rush to grab the free slot. Same problem as if there are no paid accounts: people hanging around trying to grab the next available slot.

Maybe there's a waiting list for them, as has been suggested before. If so hopefully such a list could be automated somehow so that the group owner doesn't need to manage it. Maybe it is optionally controlled by owners that want to manage it (select who gets the next slot), otherwise the slots could be filled in the order that people entered the list.

Shal


 

Right. IMO too complicated, both logistically and politically/psychologically. Better for everyone to pay the yearly $2.50 completely unrelated to any specific group. Drew's suggestion.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Scott Chase
 

"Everyone" paying $2.50 is not better for "everyone". Please, each group has different circumstances. I don't want a $2.50 user paywall added to access my group. It will die. And I suspect that many of the other tiny group owners who don't follow [beta] would probably agree. Do any of you who have well-established, huge groups here care at all how this might impact all the many new tiny groups who just recently paid $220 to transfer all our groups over here from free Yahoo?

Scott


 

J,


Right. IMO too complicated, both logistically and politically/psychologically. Better for everyone to pay the yearly $2.50 completely unrelated to any specific group. Drew's suggestion.
 
I was going to suggest that perhaps there should be a plan that includes no free slots, for group owners of your persuasion.

But there's a numeric question that comes into play: In Mark's original Pricing Changes number of included members x the per-member cost equals exactly the base cost of the group (for both Premium and Enterprise, monthly or yearly). Subtracting off the included members would leave a plan cost of zero.

If we exclude Basic and Enterprise groups from this option it may be ok for a type of Premium group to have a zero base cost, or a very nominal one, so long as every member (including the owner) has a paid Groups.io account.

Shal


 

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 08:51 PM, Scott Chase wrote:
Do any of you who have well-established, huge groups here care at all how this might impact all the many new tiny groups who just recently paid $220 to transfer all our groups over here from free Yahoo?
First of all, I'm not in favor of Drew's "everyone pays $2.50" proposal. I just think it's heaps better than Samuel's proposal where you have to pay to get into a group if you've over the group limit. I think Mark's original, unblemished plan (or proposal, depending on whether you believe it's cast in stone or not - there has been some question about that) is best.

Second, you're already grandfathered in, as I understand it.

And for the record, although it's not relevant, my group is far from huge. And I'm grandfathered in, too. I am just concerned about how Samuel's proposal would affect the forces swirling around groups.io as a whole if people can, or have to, pay to get into groups that are past their limits.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 09:00 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I was going to suggest that perhaps there should be a plan that includes no free slots, for group owners of your persuasion.
I thought of that and immediately blew it off. This whole idea pits groups against each other. "This one is free," "that one charges," etc.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu