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moderated Rethink the messaging when user from banned domain tries to subscribe #suggestion #misc


 

Mark wrote this in the update today:

BUGFIX: In some cases, people on banned domains were allowed to subscribe to a group.
Banned domains came up for me recently when a former group member whom I had banned, and whose domain I had also banned, tried to resubscribe. I banned both him and his domain, not knowing exactly what the effects would be, but thinking I'd covered all my bases that way. I found out he'd tried to join through the log entry: "Non-member [x] attempted to subscribe with a banned domain via web." I assume that he was not logged in when he tried to rejoin, since had he been logged in, as a banned member the group would not even have been visible to him. (Thanks, Duane, for pointing that out to me in Docs. I had thought that only the Apply button would not be visible.)

Not knowing what happened, and what he saw, if anything, after he attempted to join with a banned domain, and wanting to find out, I tricked Nina into telling me in Docs by suggesting to her that it be documented. :-) As I'd hoped, she found out the answer and put it into the manual. From her message:
"
The Banning domains from a group topic in the Owners Manual now contains a note about what someone who’s not logged in and who tries to join a group from a banned domain sees (a notice that states “You are not allowed to subscribe to the group with that domain”).

I wonder whether this is what we want to happen. Banned users can't even see the group in question, let alone know they're banned from it. So do we want people with banned domains knowing that their domain is banned? In fact, had I known that this person would see that message, I would not have banned his domain. As I said, I wasn't sure what would happen but was trying to cover all my bases. Now that this is documented, it's not such a big deal (no surprises). But I wonder whether the same reasoning applies to a banned domain as applies to a banned user wth respect to letting them know that they're banned. I'm not sure what the alternative would be, since logging in does not apply to a domain, so unlike with a banned user, you can't make the group invisible to anyone from the domain. I just wonder whether the current messaging should be reconsidered somehow.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Starchild <sfdreamer@...>
 

"So do we want people with banned domains knowing that their domain is banned?"
    In my view: YES! Transparency is good. And I must say, banning entire domains sounds highly dubious to begin with, unless the whole domain is clearly just a vehicle for spam. In that case, I would hope some attempt is made to reasonably ascertain this prior to a domain being blacklisted.

Namaste,

((( starchild )))


-----Original Message-----
From: J_Catlady
Sent: Jan 29, 2021 9:04 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: [beta] Rethink the messaging when user from banned domain tries to subscribe #misc #suggestion

Mark wrote this in the update today:

BUGFIX: In some cases, people on banned domains were allowed to subscribe to a group.
Banned domains came up for me recently when a former group member whom I had banned, and whose domain I had also banned, tried to resubscribe. I banned both him and his domain, not knowing exactly what the effects would be, but thinking I'd covered all my bases that way. I found out he'd tried to join through the log entry: "Non-member [x] attempted to subscribe with a banned domain via web." I assume that he was not logged in when he tried to rejoin, since had he been logged in, as a banned member the group would not even have been visible to him. (Thanks, Duane, for pointing that out to me in Docs. I had thought that only the Apply button would not be visible.)

Not knowing what happened, and what he saw, if anything, after he attempted to join with a banned domain, and wanting to find out, I tricked Nina into telling me in Docs by suggesting to her that it be documented. :-) As I'd hoped, she found out the answer and put it into the manual. From her message:
"
The Banning domains from a group topic in the Owners Manual now contains a note about what someone who’s not logged in and who tries to join a group from a banned domain sees (a notice that states “You are not allowed to subscribe to the group with that domain”).

I wonder whether this is what we want to happen. Banned users can't even see the group in question, let alone know they're banned from it. So do we want people with banned domains knowing that their domain is banned? In fact, had I known that this person would see that message, I would not have banned his domain. As I said, I wasn't sure what would happen but was trying to cover all my bases. Now that this is documented, it's not such a big deal (no surprises). But I wonder whether the same reasoning applies to a banned domain as applies to a banned user wth respect to letting them know that they're banned. I'm not sure what the alternative would be, since logging in does not apply to a domain, so unlike with a banned user, you can't make the group invisible to anyone from the domain. I just wonder whether the current messaging should be reconsidered somehow.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Not all transparency is good. We (purposely) don’t let people know when they’ve been banned from a grouo.


On Jan 29, 2021, at 10:10 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:


"So do we want people with banned domains knowing that their domain is banned?"
    In my view: YES! Transparency is good. And I must say, banning entire domains sounds highly dubious to begin with, unless the whole domain is clearly just a vehicle for spam. In that case, I would hope some attempt is made to reasonably ascertain this prior to a domain being blacklisted.

Namaste,

((( starchild )))


-----Original Message-----
From: J_Catlady
Sent: Jan 29, 2021 9:04 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: [beta] Rethink the messaging when user from banned domain tries to subscribe #misc #suggestion

Mark wrote this in the update today:

BUGFIX: In some cases, people on banned domains were allowed to subscribe to a group.
Banned domains came up for me recently when a former group member whom I had banned, and whose domain I had also banned, tried to resubscribe. I banned both him and his domain, not knowing exactly what the effects would be, but thinking I'd covered all my bases that way. I found out he'd tried to join through the log entry: "Non-member [x] attempted to subscribe with a banned domain via web." I assume that he was not logged in when he tried to rejoin, since had he been logged in, as a banned member the group would not even have been visible to him. (Thanks, Duane, for pointing that out to me in Docs. I had thought that only the Apply button would not be visible.)

Not knowing what happened, and what he saw, if anything, after he attempted to join with a banned domain, and wanting to find out, I tricked Nina into telling me in Docs by suggesting to her that it be documented. :-) As I'd hoped, she found out the answer and put it into the manual. From her message:
"
The Banning domains from a group topic in the Owners Manual now contains a note about what someone who’s not logged in and who tries to join a group from a banned domain sees (a notice that states “You are not allowed to subscribe to the group with that domain”).

I wonder whether this is what we want to happen. Banned users can't even see the group in question, let alone know they're banned from it. So do we want people with banned domains knowing that their domain is banned? In fact, had I known that this person would see that message, I would not have banned his domain. As I said, I wasn't sure what would happen but was trying to cover all my bases. Now that this is documented, it's not such a big deal (no surprises). But I wonder whether the same reasoning applies to a banned domain as applies to a banned user wth respect to letting them know that they're banned. I'm not sure what the alternative would be, since logging in does not apply to a domain, so unlike with a banned user, you can't make the group invisible to anyone from the domain. I just wonder whether the current messaging should be reconsidered somehow.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

The other thing I encountered when investigating (aka quizzing Nina about :) what a banned member or domain sees upon trying to join the group was a bad error message when a banned member actually tried to go to the group home page - for example, if someone had sent them a link to it. Nina informed us this morning in Docs that the error has now been fixed, because she had seen it as well and reported it to Mark. I tested this and found that now, when a banned member goes to the group home page, they see "You are not a member of this group." So maybe something like that could happen when an email address with a banned domain tries to apply to the group. It doesn't entirely make sense, because obviously, if they're trying to join the group, they already know they're not a member of it. But the same holds for a banned member trying to visit the group's home page. Perhaps the language could be adjusted slightly so that the same messaging could be applied to both situations, and so that an email addresss with a banned domain would not be explicitly told they can't join the group with that domain.

OTOH, I don't know from domains. I banned the one ex-member's domain because it was his private domain and I know that I didn't want him or anyone from his company joining the group. That is probably not the norm.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Starchild <sfdreamer@...>
 


     What is the point of trying to mislead people about why they can't join groups? If a ban is legitimate, then I see no good reason to hide it. Letting people know what behavior or actions result in bans produces less of that kind of behavior, which, presumably, is the goal. And in the cases where a mistake has been made, letting people know a ban exists allows them to appeal it and try to get the error corrected.

Namaste,

((( starchild )))

-----Original Message-----
From: J_Catlady
Sent: Jan 30, 2021 10:44 AM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Rethink the messaging when user from banned domain tries to subscribe #misc #suggestion

The other thing I encountered when investigating (aka quizzing Nina about :) what a banned member or domain sees upon trying to join the group was a bad error message when a banned member actually tried to go to the group home page - for example, if someone had sent them a link to it. Nina informed us this morning in Docs that the error has now been fixed, because she had seen it as well and reported it to Mark. I tested this and found that now, when a banned member goes to the group home page, they see "You are not a member of this group." So maybe something like that could happen when an email address with a banned domain tries to apply to the group. It doesn't entirely make sense, because obviously, if they're trying to join the group, they already know they're not a member of it. But the same holds for a banned member trying to visit the group's home page. Perhaps the language could be adjusted slightly so that the same messaging could be applied to both situations, and so that an email addresss with a banned domain would not be explicitly told they can't join the group with that domain.

OTOH, I don't know from domains. I banned the one ex-member's domain because it was his private domain and I know that I didn't want him or anyone from his company joining the group. That is probably not the norm.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

This decision was made years ago and IIRC, the majority of people were strongly in favor of not notifying people when they are banned. If you feel differently, you're free to set up an active Banned Member notice to be automatically sent to any member you ban.


On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:23 PM Starchild <sfdreamer@...> wrote:

     What is the point of trying to mislead people about why they can't join groups? If a ban is legitimate, then I see no good reason to hide it. Letting people know what behavior or actions result in bans produces less of that kind of behavior, which, presumably, is the goal. And in the cases where a mistake has been made, letting people know a ban exists allows them to appeal it and try to get the error corrected.

Namaste,

((( starchild )))

-----Original Message-----
From: J_Catlady
Sent: Jan 30, 2021 10:44 AM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Rethink the messaging when user from banned domain tries to subscribe #misc #suggestion

The other thing I encountered when investigating (aka quizzing Nina about :) what a banned member or domain sees upon trying to join the group was a bad error message when a banned member actually tried to go to the group home page - for example, if someone had sent them a link to it. Nina informed us this morning in Docs that the error has now been fixed, because she had seen it as well and reported it to Mark. I tested this and found that now, when a banned member goes to the group home page, they see "You are not a member of this group." So maybe something like that could happen when an email address with a banned domain tries to apply to the group. It doesn't entirely make sense, because obviously, if they're trying to join the group, they already know they're not a member of it. But the same holds for a banned member trying to visit the group's home page. Perhaps the language could be adjusted slightly so that the same messaging could be applied to both situations, and so that an email addresss with a banned domain would not be explicitly told they can't join the group with that domain.

OTOH, I don't know from domains. I banned the one ex-member's domain because it was his private domain and I know that I didn't want him or anyone from his company joining the group. That is probably not the norm.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Furthermore, you can ban email addresses (or domains) preemptively, before they've been a member or even applied for membership. It makes no sense to notify those banned email addresses or domains a priori.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu