Topics

moderated "Pending Message" notification that could be clicked on to delete it. #suggestion

 

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 04:04 AM, Michael Pavan wrote:
Valid, but minimal point.
If one Moderator/Owner currently starts to moderate a message, are all other Moderators/Owner prevented from doing so?
OR
If more than one Moderator/Owner currently is moderating at the same time, does who ever finishes first prevail?
That has nothing to do with the issue of allowing members to delete pending messages. It's completely separate. It's the issue Shal recently brought up when he suggested his "claimed" feature for pending messages.

I wouldn't argue against this improvement because it might prevent whoever acted first from determining the outcome...
Not the issue.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

David Grimm
 

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:51 PM, JohnF wrote:
How about a way to attach a note to the moderator for a message that's pending approval?
If a message is sent by email, the sender wouldn't even know it was being moderated, unless the group has a policy that every message from every sender is moderated.. Some members think that any delay in publishing their message is due only to the mechanical computer system. 

Dave

 

That’s easily solvable by sending an email message notifying them their message is being moderated, along with a copy of the message. And I think that would be very useful. But the synchronicity problem remains, of a sender trying to delete a message at the same time a moderator is working on moderating it. That’s the ugly/messy part making it seem not worth the trouble. 


On Feb 20, 2020, at 10:06 AM, David Grimm <engrdave325@...> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:51 PM, JohnF wrote:
How about a way to attach a note to the moderator for a message that's pending approval?
If a message is sent by email, the sender wouldn't even know it was being moderated, unless the group has a policy that every message from every sender is moderated.. Some members think that any delay in publishing their message is due only to the mechanical computer system. 

Dave

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

J,

Someone (or someones, until Shal's "claimed" feature is implemented,
if it is) may be hard at work moderating the message and then it can
disappear out from under them.
If you mean "hard at work writing a rejection note" that's the situation I was addressing recently (#24214); editing a message already claims it.

-----

What if instead of actually deleting the message, the member's Delete request operates more like a kind of claim. Approval and Rejection by email would be blocked, and the web Pending list would display a badge indication the member's Deletion request.

If a moderator includes the message in an Action from the list (except Delete), a red-banner could report the Deletion Request (and update the list, which might be showing a stale copy from before the member clicked Delete).

Similarly if the member opens the message from the list: a red banner message indicating the Deletion request. Or if the moderator clicks on any of the buttons (again, except Delete) the red banner to indicate the Deletion request.

As with a moderator claim, I'd let the moderator override the Deletion Request after the red banner has been shown once. Not sure why a mod might do that, but I'm sure someone will find it useful.

If no moderator takes care of the Deletion requested message via the web, it should time out and auto-delete, similar to the case with any pending message that isn't approved or rejected.

Shal

 

JohnF,

How about a way to attach a note to the moderator for a message
that's > pending approval?

I like that, if it is kept minimal, like the text box for entering a reason for an edit.

If the idea of treating a Deletion request like a claim is taken up then the note can appear as a tool-tip on the badge in the list, and in the red banner warning to a moderator who opens the message.

Shal

 

Michael,

If one Moderator/Owner currently starts to moderate a message, are all
other Moderators/Owner prevented from doing so?
Depends on what you mean by "moderate" - the first moderator to Edit a pending message gets a "claim" on it. That prevents action by email, but only warns other moderators who attempt to act by web (they can override the "claim" warning by acting on the message despite it).

That is not (currently) true of Rejecting a message (which opens an edit box for the rejection notice.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/24214

It is also not true of simply opening the message from the list to look at it and maybe choose a button.

If more than one Moderator/Owner currently is moderating at the same
time, does who ever finishes first prevail?
Except for the Edit action, whoever finishes first prevails.

That is, if a bunch of moderators open a message to look at it, and one approves it then the rest (if they try to take an action) get a warning that the message no longer exists.

If there currently is a 'lock' that prevents more than one
Moderator/Owner from interacting with a Pending Message, could it not
also be used to prevent any second party (whether Sender or
Moderator/Owner) from doing so.
I think a similar "lock" could be used, but I'd want it to be distinct in both appearance (so that mods would know whether it is a moderator claim or a sender's deletion request) and because I would want slightly different behavior.

In particular I wouldn't want a moderator's claim to prevent a member from making a deletion request. That's because I sometimes leave a claimed message in the queue for hours (or a day) while I consider it or ask another moderator about it. If the member meanwhile decides to withdraw the message I'd like to know about that, and not have them prevented from making the request.

Shal

 

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 11:39 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
If you mean "hard at work writing a rejection note" that's the situation I was addressing recently (#24214); editing a message already claims it.
Yes, if your "claimed" feature is implemented, that could possibly be a way out of the dilemma, as mentioned. 

What if instead of actually deleting the message, the member's Delete request operates more like a kind of claim.

Yes, that's what I had in mind. Whoever gets to the message first (sender or mod) stops the other from affecting it one way or the other, no matter what you call it. Calling it "claimed" by the sender works fine. However, I'm not sure about the logistics of blocking approval and rejection via email. It seems you still have the problem that the moderator may start working on the message, and only after finishing and attempting to send the approval or rejection do they find out that the member has "claimed" (i.e., deleted) the message. So unless I'm missing something, the basic problem still remains if the mod is working by email.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 11:48 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
How about a way to attach a note to the moderator for a message
that's > pending approval?

I like that, if it is kept minimal, like the text box for entering a reason for an edit.
How is that possible if the member has posted via the web, since the sender can't see the pending message and has no access to it whatsoever?

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 12:05 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
In particular I wouldn't want a moderator's claim to prevent a member from making a deletion request. That's because I sometimes leave a claimed message in the queue for hours (or a day) while I consider it or ask another moderator about it. If the member meanwhile decides to withdraw the message I'd like to know about that, and not have them prevented from making the request.
That is a good point. But there still seem to be the other issues/problems.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 03:04 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
How is that possible if the member has posted via the web, since the sender
can't see the pending message and has no access to it whatsoever?
As part of the change, a feature would need to be added to show a web-using member the list of posts pending approval to which moderation comments could be attached. (Moderators could even use this feature to attach comments for other moderators to pending messages.)

For members using mail, they couldn't just reply to their own mail out of the sent box, as Groups.io couldn't tell the difference between that being a moderation comment or a new message reply. So, there'd either need to be a "Your message is being moderated" notice sent that could be replied to to add comments, or we could decide that this feature is little-used enough that a mail user could just send a generic to-the-moderators email not attached to a specific message (which can be done now).

JohnF

 

Yes, that would need to be added. And that’s the feature that I requested originally, and which I think would be the most useful, since currently, web posters have no record of a pending message. I requested that feature nearly a year ago. All of which, combined, is why I said at nearly the top of this thread that the feature would require fairly massive changes to the UI, just in the service of letting the sender change their mind.
I would still press for giving senders a copy (either via web or email) of their web-posted pending messages. The rest seems to have diminishing returns, but I certainly wouldn’t object to any of it.

On Feb 21, 2020, at 6:49 AM, JohnF via Groups.Io <johnf1686=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 03:04 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
How is that possible if the member has posted via the web, since the sender
can't see the pending message and has no access to it whatsoever?
As part of the change, a feature would need to be added to show a web-using member the list of posts pending approval to which moderation comments could be attached. (Moderators could even use this feature to attach comments for other moderators to pending messages.)

For members using mail, they couldn't just reply to their own mail out of the sent box, as Groups.io couldn't tell the difference between that being a moderation comment or a new message reply. So, there'd either need to be a "Your message is being moderated" notice sent that could be replied to to add comments, or we could decide that this feature is little-used enough that a mail user could just send a generic to-the-moderators email not attached to a specific message (which can be done now).

JohnF


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Bill Hazel
 

If I might add another reason to have a "Pending Message" notification:
I am currently a member of 6 groups, 3 that fall into the general subset that this one does.
Now, granted, most people's memory is probably much better than mine, but:
"Which group did I post that to?"
"Did I post to the right one?"
"Did I post?
are all questions i have asked myself.
The last one actually comes up more often than you might think because not all Moderators are as Johnny-on-the-spot as the Moderators of this group.

Bill

 

Exactly. Those are all great reasons!


On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Bill Hazel <william.j.hazel@...> wrote:

If I might add another reason to have a "Pending Message" notification:
I am currently a member of 6 groups, 3 that fall into the general subset that this one does.
Now, granted, most people's memory is probably much better than mine, but:
"Which group did I post that to?"
"Did I post to the right one?"
"Did I post?
are all questions i have asked myself.
The last one actually comes up more often than you might think because not all Moderators are as Johnny-on-the-spot as the Moderators of this group.

Bill

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

Add to that: did my post reach the system? It’s an acknowledgment of receipt, and I think it is sorely lacking.


On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:23 AM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Exactly. Those are all great reasons!


On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Bill Hazel <william.j.hazel@...> wrote:

If I might add another reason to have a "Pending Message" notification:
I am currently a member of 6 groups, 3 that fall into the general subset that this one does.
Now, granted, most people's memory is probably much better than mine, but:
"Which group did I post that to?"
"Did I post to the right one?"
"Did I post?
are all questions i have asked myself.
The last one actually comes up more often than you might think because not all Moderators are as Johnny-on-the-spot as the Moderators of this group.

Bill

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

The banner is helpful but I think the sender should really get a copy of, or access to viewing, their sent message.


On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:26 AM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Add to that: did my post reach the system? It’s an acknowledgment of receipt, and I think it is sorely lacking.


On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:23 AM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Exactly. Those are all great reasons!


On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Bill Hazel <william.j.hazel@...> wrote:

If I might add another reason to have a "Pending Message" notification:
I am currently a member of 6 groups, 3 that fall into the general subset that this one does.
Now, granted, most people's memory is probably much better than mine, but:
"Which group did I post that to?"
"Did I post to the right one?"
"Did I post?
are all questions i have asked myself.
The last one actually comes up more often than you might think because not all Moderators are as Johnny-on-the-spot as the Moderators of this group.

Bill

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 04:10 PM, Bill Hazel wrote:
"Which group did I post that to?"
"Did I post to the right one?"
"Did I post?
are all questions i have asked myself.
The answers are easy enough to find by looking at the web UI after a suitable delay where moderation is in force*. And if you posted by email then look in your Sent Items folder. :)

The last one actually comes up more often than you might think because not all Moderators are as Johnny-on-the-spot as the Moderators of this group.
In the group only the first post in any topic is moderated anyway, unless something has changed.

* Living on a different continent one gets used to moderation delays. Patience is (I am told) a virtue.

Chris

 

The user has no access to their pending message if sent via web. That’s my point. 


On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:33 AM, Chris Jones via Groups.Io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 04:10 PM, Bill Hazel wrote:
"Which group did I post that to?"
"Did I post to the right one?"
"Did I post?
are all questions i have asked myself.
The answers are easy enough to find by looking at the web UI after a suitable delay where moderation is in force*. And if you posted by email then look in your Sent Items folder. :)

The last one actually comes up more often than you might think because not all Moderators are as Johnny-on-the-spot as the Moderators of this group.
In the group only the first post in any topic is moderated anyway, unless something has changed.

* Living on a different continent one gets used to moderation delays. Patience is (I am told) a virtue.

Chris

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Bill Hazel
 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 08:33 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
In the group only the first post in any topic is moderated anyway, unless something has changed.
That is one of the choices the owner can choose, they can also choose to:
Moderate every message. (I have that setting for one of my groups)
Moderate the first (1-4) messages of a member (2 for one of my groups)
Not moderate at all
Also topics can require moderation if they've been dormant for over (xxx) days

 

J,

*However,* I'm not sure about the logistics of blocking approval and
rejection via email. It seems you still have the problem that the
moderator may start working on the message, and only after finishing
and attempting to send the approval or rejection do they find out that
the member has "claimed" (i.e., deleted) the message.
Both accepting and rejecting by email are nearly instantaneous events: you click Reply or Forward and Send - there is no time spent in an edit session. Now you may have spent some time thinking about the message before taking action, but there's really no way to handle that: no signal from you to say "I'm thinking about this pending notice in my inbox".

So unless I'm missing something, the basic problem still remains if
the mod is working by email.
I really don't see it as a problem. But that may just be my style being different than yours.

If I approve or reject by email it is usually because the decision for that message was instantly obvious to me. When a message needs consideration I tend to click through to the site to deal with it. If I'm lucky I remember to claim it before beginning to compose a message to the member, another moderator, or a rejection notice. If the message needs some trimming, redaction, or a mod note that edit has to be done on site anyway (and is the one action that currently does claim a pending message).

Shal

 

Shal,

All depends what you mean by “nearly instantaneous.” If it’s not “instantaneous enough,” you have a problem, and an ugly, messy one.

And yes, in my case and in my group, and no doubt in others, there are times when it is in no way instantaneous.

You can’t wish the problem away.

My two cents.

On Feb 22, 2020, at 12:57 PM, Shal Farley <@Shal> wrote:

J,

*However,* I'm not sure about the logistics of blocking approval and
rejection via email. It seems you still have the problem that the
moderator may start working on the message, and only after finishing
and attempting to send the approval or rejection do they find out that
the member has "claimed" (i.e., deleted) the message.
Both accepting and rejecting by email are nearly instantaneous events: you click Reply or Forward and Send - there is no time spent in an edit session. Now you may have spent some time thinking about the message before taking action, but there's really no way to handle that: no signal from you to say "I'm thinking about this pending notice in my inbox".

So unless I'm missing something, the basic problem still remains if
the mod is working by email.
I really don't see it as a problem. But that may just be my style being different than yours.

If I approve or reject by email it is usually because the decision for that message was instantly obvious to me. When a message needs consideration I tend to click through to the site to deal with it. If I'm lucky I remember to claim it before beginning to compose a message to the member, another moderator, or a rejection notice. If the message needs some trimming, redaction, or a mod note that edit has to be done on site anyway (and is the one action that currently does claim a pending message).

Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu