Topics

locked [owlperch] To Duane, Matthew, Shal & Tyger


 

Brenda,

Duane & Matthew,
What are the rules about bringing over documents, i.e. charts, files,
etc. we created on Yahoo to here? Is that doable, since we created them?
I'm not them, but I think it is always permissible to bring your own documents (those that you created) to another site. Whether it is "doable" in the sense of "easy to accomplish" may be another matter entirely...

Note that in Yahoo Groups' Guidelines it is all about permission:

5. Post your own content. Have the other group member's permissions
before re-posting their content. This goes for you too, moderators.

Can you transport a Wiki? Is there any way to get the table that Tyger
started in the Wiki on Sanctuary viewable on the Yahoo Crusade Blog, or
to Mods and Members?
I'll have to try it and see. I can copy the formatted text or the HTML code out of PBworks' wikis, but I haven't done much yet with Groups.io's wikis. It looks like one can only see the formatted text, but that may ok if that will paste sensibly into Wordpress or Neo.

Still haven't found the time to fold Duane's (updated) file into the Feature Comparison page Tyger put up at MMsanctuary. Been busy, and its looking like my weekend is going to be slammed too.

-- Shal


Nightowl >8#
 

Shal wrote:>>'m not them, but I think it is always permissible to bring your own documents (those that you created) to another site. Whether it is "doable" in the sense of "easy to accomplish" may be another matter entirely...<<

You can always weigh in on something I direct to others. :) Okay, so as long as we know it's not against Yahoo's TOS, we can do that. Duane and Matthew can probably figure out how. Thanks.

Shal wrote:>>I'll have to try it and see. I can copy the formatted text or the HTML code out of PBworks' wikis, but I haven't done much yet with Groups.io's wikis. It looks like one can only see the formatted text, but that may ok if that will paste sensibly into Wordpress or Neo.<<

Okay, next question on that, does Mark allow us to copy and transport data from a Wiki here to somewhere else? If so, that would be great, if we could get it maintained both here and the blog or group.

Shal wrote:>>Still haven't found the time to fold Duane's (updated) file into the Feature Comparison page Tyger put up at MMsanctuary. Been busy, and its looking like my weekend is going to be slammed too.<<

Believe me, I get it. I feel some nights like I just want to flop into bed and not move, but there's too much to get done before I can. Or if I don't do some things, I feel horribly guilty. I'm struggling to get a balance between myself/John, Parents, and Other. That's why I asked for feedback about how people feel because I can't be monitoring all of this all the time like I used to.

It's not any sort of rush, just wondering if we can do it. See, the main thing to do in MM is explain this to them, both in present feature mode, and future features mode.

Thanks Shal,

Brenda



Nightowl >8#
 

Shal...how did you get this post into Beta? I was reading Beta, and clicking next, and this was message 1097, but Owlperch doesn't have that many messages....

Owls are confused.... Did you copy it over to here to answer it, or is it somehow in both locations? If it's in both locations, show me how you did that?

Brenda


 

Brenda, Mark,

Shal...how did you get this post into Beta?
Darn good question.

I replied to your post, sending it to owlperch only I thought. But I received it back from both owlperch and beta. As apparently did you, and unfortunately you replied to the copy from beta. I'm leaving this reply in beta, as explanation and apology to the members of beta.

I can only imagine that somehow I got beta into the bcc field without noticing. But that idea is contradicted by my sent message - it has nothing in the bcc field.

This might be related to a couple of bounces I got earlier in the evening, complaining of a duplicate message:

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

beta@groups.io (reading confirmation): 500 Error: Duplicate message.
Arrival-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 06:49:37 +0000
Reporting-MTA: dns; cdptpa-oedge01

Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 06:49:37 +0000
Status: 5.0.0
Remote-MTA: dns; web01.groups.io
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 500 Error: Duplicate message.
Final-Recipient: rfc822; beta@groups.io
Action: failed
Yet each of the two messages posted correctly (once) to beta.

I don't know if this happened at my outbound email service, or at Mark's inbound, or elsewise, but to everyone in both lists, I apologize for the confusion.

Time for bed I think.

-- Shal


Nightowl >8#
 
Edited

EDIT: ACK! It happened again! I somehow replied in here... again... in Beta. (sigh).  Maybe the info I posted about headers will help solve the mystery.

Shal, Mark, help???

Shal wrote:>>I replied to your post, sending it to owlperch only I thought. But I received it back from both owlperch and beta. As apparently did you, and unfortunately you replied to the copy from beta. I'm leaving this reply in beta, as explanation and apology to the members of beta.<<

I only replied to the one posted in Owlperch. I didn't know there was another one in Beta.

I didn't get two copies, just one, which was another reason I was confused. I didn't even know what was going on until I saw the message number was so high after I replied. But in my Mail account box I only have one message for each posting, with this header:
From: Shal (name and e-mail)
Subject: [Beta] Re: [Owlperch]
Reply To: Beta @ groups.io
To: Owlperch @ groups.io

Maybe that will help Mark or you figure out what happened.
(I included spaces to make it not a real link for e-mails)

I also apologize to the members of Beta. Owlperch is a publicly viewable group, but it's mostly for my team and I to discuss both the Crusade and groups.io. I have no idea how the post I replied to on my actual Owlperch website got into Beta. I was not using e-mail.

Hopefully Mark can help us figure out why and how it happened.

Meanwhile, I agree with Shal. It's time for this Owl to go to bed.

Brenda


 

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 1:40 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> Shal...how did you get this post into Beta?

Darn good question.

I replied to your post, sending it to owlperch only I thought. But I received it back from both owlperch and beta. As apparently did you, and unfortunately you replied to the copy from beta. I'm leaving this reply in beta, as explanation and apology to the members of beta.

I can only imagine that somehow I got beta into the bcc field without noticing. But that idea is contradicted by my sent message - it has nothing in the bcc field.


I looked through the logs. At 12:46am pacific time, we received an inbound smtp connection from RoadRunner. In the one connection, both emails were sent, one after the other. The beta message was sent first, owlperch was second.

Mark


Nightowl >8#
 

Mark:

John looked at my headers and stuff in Thunderbird. I DO have two copies from Shal, but I would not have noticed that because I was posting from the Owlperch web site.

However, John discovered something else. Message # 43 is missing in Owlperch (and I didn't delete it), and it should have been there as my first reply to Shal, using the Web Interface. All of a sudden last night, when I replied, I noticed the message # had jumped from 40 something to a number over 1000. I knew that was weird, and that was how I noticed suddenly, my post was in Beta.

Please help us figure out what happened, so we don't do it again.

Thanks.


 

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Feathered Leader <featheredleader@...> wrote:

However, John discovered something else. Message # 43 is missing in Owlperch (and I didn't delete it), and it should have been there as my first reply to Shal, using the Web Interface. All of a sudden last night, when I replied, I noticed the message # had jumped from 40 something to a number over 1000. I knew that was weird, and that was how I noticed suddenly, my post was in Beta.

This is going to get a little technical. Every email has a unique 'message-id'. This is just a long string of characters, and the hope is that it's unique in all the world. It's generated by your email client or email server.

When replying to a message, the message-id of the email you're replying to is included in the headers of your email. That's how email clients know one message is a reply to another message. If someone then replies to your reply, they will have your message-id in the header to their message, and so on. But they will also generally include the message-id of the original email in the headers as well. You end up with a chain of message-ids. If you view the headers for an email, this is the 'References:' line.

One other thing to note, emails can arrive out of order. We can get a reply to an email before we get the original email.

So, if we get an email, with a message-id in the references list that we've never seen before, we think we've gotten an out of order reply, and that we should expect to see the original message at some point. We put a 'placeholder' message in the database that corresponds to this message we haven't seen before. It's empty, and it doesn't show up in archives, but it does have a message number. When we see the original message, we replace the placeholder with the original, and we're good.

So, there may be cases where message numbers jump without someone having deleted a message. This should be very rare.

What happened in this case is that Shal replied to an email in a different group. Therefore, his message had in the references a message-id that the group owlperch had never seen. We assumed we were seeing an out of order reply, and added a placeholder for the message we hadn't seen (and will never see, since it's from another group).

So, things are working as designed. It does occur to me that I can make the algorithm a little less 'anal' which would prevent a message number jump in this instance. It would increase the change of weird threading behavior, but I think the chance of that happening would be small.

More info than you wanted to know.....


Mark


Nightowl >8#
 

Mark wrote:>>More info than you wanted to know.....<<

Not ever. I like lots of info. :)

Just tell me how to prevent it from happening again? Was it something I did wrong? If so, please help me prevent it from happening again.

And why did it jump me out of my group into Beta when I replied? After I sent the reply, I was no longer in my tab, I was in Beta's tab.

Thanks,
Brenda


Nightowl >8#
 

Mark wrote:>>What happened in this case is that Shal replied to an email in a different group. Therefore, his message had in the references a message-id that the group owlperch had never seen. We assumed we were seeing an out of order reply, and added a placeholder for the message we hadn't seen (and will never see, since it's from another group).<<

Can you explain to me, how Shal was able to reply to my message in a different group when my message was not in the Beta group? My original post was not in Beta, so how was he able to reply to it from Beta....

Still confused....

Brenda


 

Brenda,

Can you explain to me, how Shal was able to reply to my message in a
different group when my message was not in the Beta group?
That part's sort-of easy. I replied by email, not on the web (in particular, not from the beta group).

Technically, I could easily have cross-posted my reply to beta by including its address, along with owlperch's, in the To, CC, or BCC of the outgoing reply. The hard part about that, to me, is that I'm pretty sure that only owlperch's address was in my outgoing reply.

So I'm still mystified about how my reply ended up in Beta. Mark says his system received the message twice, once addressed to beta and once to owlperch. That would be consistent with me cross-posting the reply. I just don't know how I did that, if I did that, or what other thing could have caused it.

-- Shal


 

Mark,

I looked through the logs. At 12:46am pacific time, we received an
inbound smtp connection from RoadRunner. In the one connection, both
emails were sent, one after the other. The beta message was sent first,
owlperch was second.
Interesting. Looking at the View Source in both groups, the header fields have byte-identical content, which makes sense I guess given that they came in on the same connection. Identical ID means that Roadrunner thought they were the same message, which isn't a surprise (that would still be true if I had done something like a BCC).

But the order of the fields is radically different, which is weird.

Were there any other messages in that connection? My prior message to beta, #1096, went out in the same batch from Eudora to Roadrunner, and its timestamp is only one second earlier in your server's Received from Roadrunner, strongly implying that it might have been in the same connection.

Is it possible there was a glitch during the connection between Roadrunner and your server, causing Roadrunner to think the first attempt at the owlperch delivery failed, but your server accepted it and somehow mistakenly applied the destination address of the prior message in the connection?

Nightmare scenario I'm sure. This makes me all the more suspicious of those "duplicate message" bounces I received. I think those may represent three more instances of the same glitch, but those were caught because the same group was the destination.

-- Shal


 

Mark,

So, if we get an email, with a message-id in the references list that
we've never seen before, we think we've gotten an out of order reply,
and that we should expect to see the original message at some point.
Wouldn't this be an ordinary result with a cross-posted reply? Cross-posting ought to be more commonly forwarded messages than replies, but _users do the darndest things_ (to paraphrase Art Linkletter). I've often bcc'd a group reply to a friend, but probably not too often to another group or list.

We put a 'placeholder' message in the database that corresponds to this
message we haven't seen before. It's empty, and it doesn't show up in
archives, but it does have a message number. When we see the original
message, we replace the placeholder with the original, and we're good.
Why? Just to prevent the rare case of a message number being out of order in the thread? Or are the threads actually sorted by message number and its the message that would be presented out of order?

What happened in this case is that Shal replied to an email in a
different group. Therefore, his message had in the references a
message-id that the group owlperch had never seen.
Other way around. The reply was to a message in owlperch. But the reply got cross-posted somehow into beta. It is beta which would never have seen the ID in that reply's References (and In-Reply-To).

The weird thing is that Brenda claims that her reply to me was made through owlperch, yet posted to beta. There's absolutely no mention of beta, nor ID of any beta messages, in the header fields of my cross-posted reply. That's too weird, I have to assume that Brenda was mistaken, and she actually replied in the Beta group, but thought it was owlperch because the subject tag said [owlperch].

-- Shal


Nightowl >8#
 

Shal wrote:>>The weird thing is that Brenda claims that her reply to me was made through owlperch, yet posted to beta. There's absolutely no mention of beta, nor ID of any beta messages, in the header fields of my cross-posted reply. That's too weird, I have to assume that Brenda was mistaken, and she actually replied in the Beta group, but thought it was owlperch because the subject tag said [owlperch].<<

That was the weirdest part. One minute I was replying to Message #42 I think it was, and I clearly saw message #42 where I was replying, and then when I sent it, it jumped me to the Beta group. When I went to hit next, the messages were in the 1080's or so, and I KNEW that was NOT right, cause Owlperch didn't have that many messages. If I was in the Beta tab, why would I see Message #42?

Had that happen once in NEO, shifted me straight out of one group into another, but have no idea why it happened here.

And John checked my headers, and my message appeared to be sent from Owlperch.

Weirder and weirder. I'll keep an eye on it, and try not to let it happen again.

Brenda


 

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

Nightmare scenario I'm sure. 

Yes, this has been bugging me ever since it happened. I'm not sure whether to be happy or deeply embarrassed and a little horrified, but I found the bug and it was in our end of the line. This only was tripped when one connection is used to send multiple emails. The first email goes through fine. The second email ends up being sent to the first email's group.

I could not find any other instances of this happening in the logs. It has been fixed. I am sorry.


Mark


 

Mark,

As long as you found and fixed the bug, it should be good. This is the sort of thing that the current Yahoo Groups team would never communicate with us on, and why we like hearing from you on things.

Matthew Pitts

 



From: Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io>
To: "beta@groups.io" <beta@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] Re: [owlperch] To Duane, Matthew, Shal & Tyger

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

Nightmare scenario I'm sure. 

Yes, this has been bugging me ever since it happened. I'm not sure whether to be happy or deeply embarrassed and a little horrified, but I found the bug and it was in our end of the line. This only was tripped when one connection is used to send multiple emails. The first email goes through fine. The second email ends up being sent to the first email's group.

I could not find any other instances of this happening in the logs. It has been fixed. I am sorry.


Mark




 

Mark,

Yes, this has been bugging me ever since it happened. I'm not sure
whether to be happy or deeply embarrassed and a little horrified, but
I found the bug and it was in our end of the line.
A bit of all of the above, no doubt. But I'd recommend happy that the problem was flushed out early on.

And I'm happy to uphold my reputation as a bug whisperer.

-- Shal


Judy F.
 

Mark, hopefully you understand you are human and you can make mistakes.  I’m amazed at how well you are handling all of these I like this, I don’t like this messages. 

 

Judy F.

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Mark Fletcher [mailto:markf@corp.groups.io]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 2:15 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Re: [owlperch] To Duane, Matthew, Shal & Tyger

 

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:


Nightmare scenario I'm sure. 

 

Yes, this has been bugging me ever since it happened. I'm not sure whether to be happy or deeply embarrassed and a little horrified, but I found the bug and it was in our end of the line. This only was tripped when one connection is used to send multiple emails. The first email goes through fine. The second email ends up being sent to the first email's group.

 

I could not find any other instances of this happening in the logs. It has been fixed. I am sorry.

 

 

Mark

 


Nightowl >8#
 

Mark,

I'm not upset, I completely understand it was a bug. I'm just totally relieved that it wasn't something stupid that I did. Even though I'm married to a programmer, I'm still not super computer literate.

No worries, just glad I wasn't losing my mind. I only do one group at a time, ever, anywhere, and I was in Owlperch. Nice to know that was true...that I really did see number 42 jump to 1087 or so.

Brenda


Nightowl >8#
 

Matthew wrote:>>As long as you found and fixed the bug, it should be good. This is the sort of thing that the current Yahoo Groups team would never communicate with us on, and why we like hearing from you on things.<<

That's for sure. Some of those bugs hung around forever. waiting on the Yahoo team to fix them,. .and many are still there...

Brenda