Topics

moderated Non - Member Posts #suggestion


Chris Jones
 

If a group is set to allow posts by non - members any such post is placed in Pending with a badge attached to inform any passing owner or moderator that the post is from a non - member. However, that badge uses the letters NM against the standard blue background. As such, unless examined more closely, it looks very like the NMM badge so the possibility of confusion cannot be ruled out. When the post is opened for checking before release (or rejection) then the badge is expanded to read Non Member against the same colour blue background. Obviously this is rather less easy to misinterpret.

If the post passes moderation then it is not clear from either the web UI or the email sent to members that the post is from a non - member. I used my wife's email address for the test and because of the way her email is set up her correct Forename & Surname were shown as the Display Name, and the members of such a group would be unlikely to realise straight away that this was not a member.  The email sent to a group also gives no clue to the poster's non - member status, or none that I have been able to detect.

Suggestion 1: Change the background colour on the NM and Non - Member badges to something other than standard blue. Something that is more clearly a "warning" (e.g. red) might be better.

Suggestion 2: Somehow flag up the fact that any given post is from a non - member for both web UI & email reading. Perhaps use a default Display Name of Non Member or a message level #hashtag advising a non - member message.

(As an aside the NM badge is not mentioned in the Owners Manual, but I'll raise that on "docs" later.)

Chris


 

If the display name is set to non-member as a default, I would like there to be some way to change that, and I’m nog sure a way exists because there’s no member page. Some of our members don’t know how to use aliases and accidentally send messages from a non-member address, but it’s still them.


On Jan 26, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

If a group is set to allow posts by non - members any such post is placed in Pending with a badge attached to inform any passing owner or moderator that the post is from a non - member. However, that badge uses the letters NM against the standard blue background. As such, unless examined more closely, it looks very like the NMM badge so the possibility of confusion cannot be ruled out. When the post is opened for checking before release (or rejection) then the badge is expanded to read Non Member against the same colour blue background. Obviously this is rather less easy to misinterpret.

If the post passes moderation then it is not clear from either the web UI or the email sent to members that the post is from a non - member. I used my wife's email address for the test and because of the way her email is set up her correct Forename & Surname were shown as the Display Name, and the members of such a group would be unlikely to realise straight away that this was not a member.  The email sent to a group also gives no clue to the poster's non - member status, or none that I have been able to detect.

Suggestion 1: Change the background colour on the NM and Non - Member badges to something other than standard blue. Something that is more clearly a "warning" (e.g. red) might be better.

Suggestion 2: Somehow flag up the fact that any given post is from a non - member for both web UI & email reading. Perhaps use a default Display Name of Non Member or a message level #hashtag advising a non - member message.

(As an aside the NM badge is not mentioned in the Owners Manual, but I'll raise that on "docs" later.)

Chris

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 


>>> Suggestion 1: Change the background colour

I also agree that, at the very-very least, changing the NM badge to some warning shade (red/maroon with yellow letters?) would visually help to alert the mod, if nothing else it could have prevented me from going into a rabbit hole trying to troubleshoot a similar NM issue a few days ago! lol 

The other reason I'm also supporting this is in the PS text, it diverges slightly so I put it there.


>>> Suggestion 2

I can see value in somehow marking/tagging/whatnot a group message depending on group function/purpose and settings, especially on research especially, news/opinion, (civil) political discussion, proposal, etc., any group function/purpose which you would want to visually identify posts coming from non-members (or non-experts?) for any reason.

The admins can always find out about that message/member if needed through the log, so at least that's covered. 

Regarding archive visual indication solution, regardless, logic would also have to be implement that happens right after member approval, to somehow retro mark/tag/whatever any already-posted nonmember-marked messages by that user before they were approved, only applicable to the UI of course, we wouldn't want to send out another same email message.  Depending on what's agreed, it may necessitate having a new status/badge/etc, XNM, "Ex Non-Member" (grey background light grey letters?), I don't know, but if we don't do some check like this, we would end up with the paradox of a (newly-approved) group member seeing their own messages online marked as having come from a [currently] non-member. :)

A XNM/whatever badge could also potentially be of use on groups which value membership status or message source in considering/weighing/rewarding content contribution.

Cheers,
Christos

PS: As a matter of fact, I would argue that we should take this and apply it further to the rest of the user badges, set special colors for them, or at least the most important ones; research has shown that old-school round steam gauges have one superiority to digital readout displays because, after you have familiarized yourself with the gauge layout and settings/values/"badges", it only takes a quick glance (or peripheral vision) to know where the dial is hence what setting/value/"badge" it points to, you don't have to "read" the instrument, or oven look directly at it; but you have to literally look and read the digital number display.  Anyone here who flies will attest to that, PPL to ATP, doesn't matter.  For the non-pilot folks, a quick test comparison between an old school round clock and your microwave's clock will show you that effect; and if you keep the clock within your nearer peripheral vision field, like let's say right next to your monitor, you can be looking a the monitor typing or whatnot, and still get a very good idea of the time without looking at the clock.  You can't do that with a digital number clock, you have to look at it and read it.

Similarly, right now in the sea of light blue, reading is your only lifejacket; but with different badge colors, after we memorize them, a quick glimpse/glance can warns us, plus tell us what's going on; one side benefit would be that if one had the whole member list onscreen, a scrolling sweep or two would give you a good idea of the [badge/user setting] group distribution, kinda of a visual self-reporting tool. 

Maybe I should start a new topic and reference this one.



 

Add me to the list of those supportive of ‘color recognition’ enhancements. 
AND fully supportive of the ‘dials’ argument in the P. S. 
Science supports each of these. 

On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 11:27 Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:


>>> Suggestion 1: Change the background colour

I also agree that, at the very-very least, changing the NM badge to some warning shade (red/maroon with yellow letters?) would visually help to alert the mod, if nothing else it could have prevented me from going into a rabbit hole trying to troubleshoot a similar NM issue a few days ago! lol 

The other reason I'm also supporting this is in the PS text, it diverges slightly so I put it there.


>>> Suggestion 2

I can see value in somehow marking/tagging/whatnot a group message depending on group function/purpose and settings, especially on research especially, news/opinion, (civil) political discussion, proposal, etc., any group function/purpose which you would want to visually identify posts coming from non-members (or non-experts?) for any reason.

The admins can always find out about that message/member if needed through the log, so at least that's covered. 

Regarding archive visual indication solution, regardless, logic would also have to be implement that happens right after member approval, to somehow retro mark/tag/whatever any already-posted nonmember-marked messages by that user before they were approved, only applicable to the UI of course, we wouldn't want to send out another same email message.  Depending on what's agreed, it may necessitate having a new status/badge/etc, XNM, "Ex Non-Member" (grey background light grey letters?), I don't know, but if we don't do some check like this, we would end up with the paradox of a (newly-approved) group member seeing their own messages online marked as having come from a [currently] non-member. :)

A XNM/whatever badge could also potentially be of use on groups which value membership status or message source in considering/weighing/rewarding content contribution.

Cheers,
Christos

PS: As a matter of fact, I would argue that we should take this and apply it further to the rest of the user badges, set special colors for them, or at least the most important ones; research has shown that old-school round steam gauges have one superiority to digital readout displays because, after you have familiarized yourself with the gauge layout and settings/values/"badges", it only takes a quick glance (or peripheral vision) to know where the dial is hence what setting/value/"badge" it points to, you don't have to "read" the instrument, or oven look directly at it; but you have to literally look and read the digital number display.  Anyone here who flies will attest to that, PPL to ATP, doesn't matter.  For the non-pilot folks, a quick test comparison between an old school round clock and your microwave's clock will show you that effect; and if you keep the clock within your nearer peripheral vision field, like let's say right next to your monitor, you can be looking a the monitor typing or whatnot, and still get a very good idea of the time without looking at the clock.  You can't do that with a digital number clock, you have to look at it and read it.

Similarly, right now in the sea of light blue, reading is your only lifejacket; but with different badge colors, after we memorize them, a quick glimpse/glance can warns us, plus tell us what's going on; one side benefit would be that if one had the whole member list onscreen, a scrolling sweep or two would give you a good idea of the [badge/user setting] group distribution, kinda of a visual self-reporting tool. 

Maybe I should start a new topic and reference this one.



billsf9c
 

Remember the old clap-boards used to cause a sound matxhing vision to sync sound and movemnt in the film industry?

Sony upped that. Digital display with 60(100?). lights going around it to provide accuracy and visual cues, each.

If you want colors - ok. For the color blind and numatical folks, have a number inside it.

To save my battery and eyes, I am reading in white text and black background. This feature also skews colors even if they are text. Science also shows that eyestrain is caused by active white background of screens.

It would be nice to see a list of all these ideas with a way to vote for priority so important things are ranked and potentially addressed, sooner/est.

BillSF9c


 

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 8:05 AM Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
If a group is set to allow posts by non - members any such post is placed in Pending with a badge attached to inform any passing owner or moderator that the post is from a non - member. However, that badge uses the letters NM against the standard blue background. As such, unless examined more closely, it looks very like the NMM badge so the possibility of confusion cannot be ruled out. When the post is opened for checking before release (or rejection) then the badge is expanded to read Non Member against the same colour blue background. Obviously this is rather less easy to misinterpret.

I've changed the badge color to red for NM and Non Member respectively.
 
Suggestion 2: Somehow flag up the fact that any given post is from a non - member for both web UI & email reading. Perhaps use a default Display Name of Non Member or a message level #hashtag advising a non - member message.

This is trickier and not quite obvious to me how to handle. What if a message is sent by a non member, and then later that person becomes a member? Does the badge stay on the message when viewing the website? And vice-versa, if a member sends a message and then leaves the group, should a badge be displayed then?

Thanks,
Mark 


Glenn Glazer
 

On 02/02/2021 10:31, Mark Fletcher wrote:
On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 8:05 AM Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
If a group is set to allow posts by non - members any such post is placed in Pending with a badge attached to inform any passing owner or moderator that the post is from a non - member. However, that badge uses the letters NM against the standard blue background. As such, unless examined more closely, it looks very like the NMM badge so the possibility of confusion cannot be ruled out. When the post is opened for checking before release (or rejection) then the badge is expanded to read Non Member against the same colour blue background. Obviously this is rather less easy to misinterpret.

I've changed the badge color to red for NM and Non Member respectively.
 
Suggestion 2: Somehow flag up the fact that any given post is from a non - member for both web UI & email reading. Perhaps use a default Display Name of Non Member or a message level #hashtag advising a non - member message.

This is trickier and not quite obvious to me how to handle. What if a message is sent by a non member, and then later that person becomes a member? Does the badge stay on the message when viewing the website? And vice-versa, if a member sends a message and then leaves the group, should a badge be displayed then?

Thanks,
Mark 

Both approaches happen in the field and I think epitomize the difference between email and UI approaches.

An email, once sent, is immutable. One cannot change how it looks in other people's inboxes. Thus, a tag or whatever is asserted to be true at the time of sending, but not either before or later.

Conversely, consider Slack, which has status icons. Changing the icon changes the icon for all posts past and future until it is changed again.

Personally, I prefer the former. The latter is too revisionist for my tastes.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


Chris Jones
 

On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 06:31 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote avout my Suggestion 1:
I've changed the badge color to red for NM and Non Member respectively.
Many thanks for that change.

Then...

My Suggestion 2: This is trickier and not quite obvious to me how to handle. What if a message is sent by a non member, and then later that person becomes a member? Does the badge stay on the message when viewing the website? And vice-versa, if a member sends a message and then leaves the group, should a badge be displayed then leaves the group, should a badge be displayed then?

I can see and fully understand the point you make. I think Glenn's
Thus, a tag or whatever is asserted to be true at the time of sending, but not either before or later is a good way of using some "identifier" without having to make widespread changes across each and every group, e.g. when a member leaves. As things stand photos posted by a member who then leaves are currently orphaned, although messages they have posted remain attributed to them. 

I still think some sort of marker would be of use, but can see why you are a bit hesitant about it!

Anyway I will put something on beta docs about the NM badge as unless something has changed in the last few days the NM badge is not mentioned at all.

Chris


 

Mark,

Thanks for taking care of suggestion 1.

>>> What if a message is sent by a non member, and then later that person becomes a member? Does the badge stay on the message when viewing the website? And vice-versa, if a member sends a message and then leaves the group, should a badge be displayed then?

Here's one way it could be accomplished, UI part first.

We can use that unused area between the name and date.  It could be something like this for a Non-Member message:

NonMember_UI_NM.jpg

It would stay there indefinitely unless that user becomes a member, in which case it would go away.

(Or possibly change it to a new badge, something like NEW or NeM "New Member", aptly colored and timed so it goes away after some time has passed since the user joined.  This would now becomes a "new group member" badge as other online forums use, the ones offering group status/standing badges and such; after some time, or maybe number of posts, it goes away)
NonMember_UI_NEW.jpg

If they leave, we display now something like XM, "Ex Member", "permanently"; that would help identify to readers messages posts from ex-members:

NonMember_UI_XM.jpg
- If that user sends-in a NM message to the group and it gets approved, it would be shown with both Non- and Ex-member badges.

- If that user comes back, the Approve-member process would check to see if they have been a member before, in which case the normal "new user" designation would not be applied on their posts or displayed; technically they are a "new" member, but we wouldn't want their previous posts being shown with NEW next to them for a while, they just rejoined, like they never left.

This visual scheme could also be replicated in other areas like Files and Photos so it takes care of orphaned display issues.

If admins start complaining that the message looks like an xmas tree or something, a badge-display on/off checkbox can be added in group settings.

The nice long-term potential benefit of using the badges like that in the UI, is that if in the future it is decided to actually offer this type of membership status/standing badges (new user, experienced user, prolific poster, contributor, whatever), the infrastructure will already be there.  It could potentially even be extended to allow the mod to set that badge as a "functionality" badge, i.e. Chairman, Secretary, Officer, Treasurer, etc, so one could visually see in topic-expanded view who is what and how their message relates to their function.

If something like this is implemented, the NonMember badge, & possibly the ExMember as well, would be available to all groups, but all the extensibility stuff I mentioned could be paid-only groups, or paid upgrade feature.


Regarding the email part:

- Flag the mod's pending message notification: "A message was sent .... from non-member ...@... that needs to be approved.", bolded so it stands out.

(It could also be further tweaked to where it will alert the less-experienced mod whether a user is in both pending-member and pending-message queues:  "A message was sent .... from (pending) non-member ...@... that needs to be approved."  The same check could then be also added in the pending member notification email as well: "...@... (having pending messages) applied to join your group Practice-NEW@groups.io.  Or something like that)


As for identifying somehow in the email sent out that it was from a non-member, using a hashtag to indicate this could work, as it would be readily visible, and would also allow someone to view only non-member posts by clicking on the hashtag; but on the other hand, we are "modifying" the subject, and it would also require that hashtag to be actively (manually or automatically by code) deleted (or changed) from the archive by someone, so it would require more admin or implementation work, plus then you'd have the problem of someone replying to the original #nonmember tagged email, causing more headache...

Instead, we could identify the NM message by using the footers, something like this maybe:

------------------------------------------
View/Reply Online ... | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Follow This Topic | New Topic| .....
Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [...@...]
Note: This message was sent to the group by a non-member.   (bolded or not)
------------------------------------------

Besides it being out of the way but still spottable, it also "replicates" the UI NM badge that goes away since that snippet would also go away after the person gets approved.  And also as in the UI equivalent, that line could also now serve for this "emailed badge(s)" functionality from now on, so it still replicates the UI, albeit not retroactively as the UI does, the snippet in the email case also can serve as a "historical" badge.

Finally, a mission creep statement: If we were to implement this and start showing the NM badge right now on the UI, it may be beneficial to also roll-in displaying the Mod or Owner (or Admin for both) badges like other forums do.

Cheers,
Christos


Samuel Murrayy
 

On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 07:31 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 8:05 AM Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
Suggestion 2: Somehow flag up the fact that any given post is from a non - member for both web UI & email reading. Perhaps use a default Display Name of Non Member or a message level #hashtag advising a non - member message.
This is trickier and not quite obvious to me how to handle. What if a message is sent by a non member, and then later that person becomes a member? Does the badge stay on the message when viewing the website? And vice-versa, if a member sends a message and then leaves the group, should a badge be displayed then?
I agree that it is normal for information about a member on a web-based forum to reflect the member's current status.  (This is sometimes annoying, because their current status will appear next to a message that they posted when they did not have that status, but this seems to be fairly standard on forums.)  So, if you want to flag a message having been sent by a non-member, you'd have to add something to the message itself.  For example, before distributing the message to subscribers, add "[This message was posted by a non-member.]" to the top of the message.

Samuel