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locked New Subscription Options

Frances
 

Hi again,

Mark, you said:  When viewing a specific group that you're subscribed to, there will be tabs on the sidebar for muted threads/hashtags, or followed threads/hashtags, allowing you to see what you've muted/followed, and letting you undo those actions. The group archives will always show all the group messages, from which you can mute or follow new things..

Well, I have been thinking that the only bit I don’t care for is the absence of actual posts on the “home page” of each specific group.
Someone who is less confident with the web might be confused when they go to that landing page for their group and they don’t see any messages. They must select “Archive” - perhaps not a particularly useful label.

And I was wondering whether instead of tabs on the side (losing the other links, perhaps?), how about This Subscription in a line with Thread View, etc.

This carries on from Your Subscriptions in the Inbox of Groups.io - same content but group specific. Just a thought. Tidier?

Frances

On Jan 22 15, at 5:38 PM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,

I think it does make sense.

I like that I will also be able to see the status of an individual group by the tabs on the side bar. 

Frances

On Jan 22 15, at 12:26 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

I think I've confused myself. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've confused myself. Let's ignore for a minute how the Inbox/Muted Threads/etc tabs actually work on the home page. How should all this work? Here's a proposal:

Based on your subscription, you either have muted threads & hashtags, or followed threads & hashtags. You're either excluding or including things to be delivered to you.

When viewing a specific group that you're subscribed to, there will be tabs on the sidebar for muted threads/hashtags, or followed threads/hashtags, allowing you to see what you've muted/followed, and letting you undo those actions. The group archives will always show all the group messages, from which you can mute or follow new things..

When going to groups.io (aka the home page), there will be tabs for Inbox, Muted Thread, Muted Hashtags, Followed Threads, Followed Hashtags. The Muted and Followed tabs are just aggregations over all your subscriptions. Inbox will be what you would get sent to you in email if your Email Delivery setting was set to Individual Messages (regardless of what your Email Delivery setting actually is).

Does that make sense? If it does, then I think the current newsubpage makes sense? Too complicated?

Thanks,
Mark

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
Mark,

> I also put Auto Follow Replies under Following Only, because that's
> the only option that applies to it.

I note that a checkmark there disappears (leaving an empty gray box) when you click "All Messages", and does not reappear when you click "Following Only" again. Same if you click "No Email" and then click "Individual Messages" again.

There's a minor issue that I'd prefer that the prior state be retained when one switches and switches back.

The more major issue is that I think "Auto Follow Replies" is a useful option for members that have selected "Special Notices Only" or "No Email" because they prefer reading messages via the "Followed Threads" tab in their Groups.io Inbox. That's the use case that makes me think it should be broken out as a stand-alone option, unaffected by Email Delivery or Message Selection.

That's assuming the necessary changes are made to the Follow/Mute affordances so that one can manage one's Followed Threads without receiving email.

Unless I've completely misunderstood.

-- Shal
Frances
 

Hi Mark,

I adjusted the description on my family group home page so that there is a link to Archives. I think having something right there would suit them better. Is there a problem with this?


When I logged out, looked for my group in the directory and clicked on the link on my home page, it required me (properly) to log in.

I guess though I am not happy with the idea of having to do a workaround at this point in Groups.io!

Frances

On Jan 22 15, at 6:08 PM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:

Hi again,

Mark, you said:  When viewing a specific group that you're subscribed to, there will be tabs on the sidebar for muted threads/hashtags, or followed threads/hashtags, allowing you to see what you've muted/followed, and letting you undo those actions. The group archives will always show all the group messages, from which you can mute or follow new things..

Well, I have been thinking that the only bit I don’t care for is the absence of actual posts on the “home page” of each specific group.
Someone who is less confident with the web might be confused when they go to that landing page for their group and they don’t see any messages. They must select “Archive” - perhaps not a particularly useful label.

And I was wondering whether instead of tabs on the side (losing the other links, perhaps?), how about This Subscription in a line with Thread View, etc.

This carries on from Your Subscriptions in the Inbox of Groups.io - same content but group specific. Just a thought. Tidier?

Frances

On Jan 22 15, at 5:38 PM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,

I think it does make sense.

I like that I will also be able to see the status of an individual group by the tabs on the side bar. 

Frances

On Jan 22 15, at 12:26 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

I think I've confused myself. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've confused myself. Let's ignore for a minute how the Inbox/Muted Threads/etc tabs actually work on the home page. How should all this work? Here's a proposal:

Based on your subscription, you either have muted threads & hashtags, or followed threads & hashtags. You're either excluding or including things to be delivered to you.

When viewing a specific group that you're subscribed to, there will be tabs on the sidebar for muted threads/hashtags, or followed threads/hashtags, allowing you to see what you've muted/followed, and letting you undo those actions. The group archives will always show all the group messages, from which you can mute or follow new things..

When going to groups.io (aka the home page), there will be tabs for Inbox, Muted Thread, Muted Hashtags, Followed Threads, Followed Hashtags. The Muted and Followed tabs are just aggregations over all your subscriptions. Inbox will be what you would get sent to you in email if your Email Delivery setting was set to Individual Messages (regardless of what your Email Delivery setting actually is).

Does that make sense? If it does, then I think the current newsubpage makes sense? Too complicated?

Thanks,
Mark

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
Mark,

> I also put Auto Follow Replies under Following Only, because that's
> the only option that applies to it.

I note that a checkmark there disappears (leaving an empty gray box) when you click "All Messages", and does not reappear when you click "Following Only" again. Same if you click "No Email" and then click "Individual Messages" again.

There's a minor issue that I'd prefer that the prior state be retained when one switches and switches back.

The more major issue is that I think "Auto Follow Replies" is a useful option for members that have selected "Special Notices Only" or "No Email" because they prefer reading messages via the "Followed Threads" tab in their Groups.io Inbox. That's the use case that makes me think it should be broken out as a stand-alone option, unaffected by Email Delivery or Message Selection.

That's assuming the necessary changes are made to the Follow/Mute affordances so that one can manage one's Followed Threads without receiving email.

Unless I've completely misunderstood.

-- Shal
Shal Farley
 

Mark,

Based on your subscription, you either have muted threads & hashtags,
or followed threads & hashtags. You're either excluding or including
things to be delivered to you.
I had imagined one might do both. For example, follow a given hashtag but mute some of the threads that have it. More generally, I had presumed that thread following/muting had priority over hashtags.

Inbox will be what you would get sent to you in email if your Email
Delivery setting was set to Individual Messages (regardless of what
your Email Delivery setting actually is).
And as if your Message Selection were set to "All Messages" (the union of all your groups' Archives)?

If the Inbox is selected by the "Following Only" control it would seem to (needlessly) mirror the Followed tabs. The web-only user still wants (I think) a place with all threads from which to select the ones of future interest.

Does that make sense? If it does, then I think the current newsubpage
makes sense? Too complicated?
I think the concept of distinct exclude and include modes of operation is an unnecessary conceptual complication. And I still think that "Auto Follow Replies" usefully applies also to web-only readers (and hence doesn't belong in a Message Selection option, which I claim ought to be only for email).

So... does that make sense to you?

Or am I the one who's proposing something that will prove too complicated in actual use?

-- Shal
Shal Farley
 

Mark,

Does that make sense? If it does, then I think the current newsubpage
makes sense? Too complicated?
Oh, I see what's missing. In my "precedence" proposal (as opposed to your "exclude/include mode proposal") the description of Following Only - "Every message in threads or hashtags you are following is emailed to you" also needs the phrase ", except threads you've muted."


In other words, I think my proposal is simple to understand, use and implement:

1) Following a thread means its messages always appear in your email. Muting a thread means its messages never appear in your email.

2) Following a hashtag means its messages always appear in your email, unless excluded by (1). Muting a hashtag means its messages never appear in your email, unless included by (1).

3) All messages not excluded by rules (1) and (2) appear in your email if you've selected All Messages. Otherwise only rules (1) and (2) apply.

-- Shal
Nightowl >8#
 

Shal....

I'm really struggling to understand any of these descriptions. And if I can't understand them, many Yahoo Groups users won't either.

So I have a suggestion:

Give us simple options and advanced options.

Under simple options, use these concepts:

Individual messages
Daily Digest
Special Notices
No Mail

Under Advanced options:

The things you and Mark are describing about muted and followed stuff. That way, people like me who want to collect the messages in e-mail, but read them live on the site, can do it simply, and easily.

I had to have John read both Mark's post and yours on this, and still don't completely understand them. There needs to be a simplified manner, at least at first. Then maybe a help page somewhere to further explain the advanced options.

Brenda
Frances
 

Well, I am okay with advanced options.
But I really don’t want to lose the possibility of First Message Only.
Very appealing to many.

Frances

On Jan 22 15, at 10:41 PM, Feathered Leader <featheredleader@...> wrote:

Shal....

I'm really struggling to understand any of these descriptions. And if I can't understand them, many Yahoo Groups users won't either.

So I have a suggestion:

Give us simple options and advanced options.

Under simple options, use these concepts:

Individual messages
Daily Digest
Special Notices
No Mail

Under Advanced options:

The things you and Mark are describing about muted and followed stuff. That way, people like me who want to collect the messages in e-mail, but read them live on the site, can do it simply, and easily.

I had to have John read both Mark's post and yours on this, and still don't completely understand them. There needs to be a simplified manner, at least at first. Then maybe a help page somewhere to further explain the advanced options.

Brenda
JohnF
 

I think having both Follow and Mute running at the same time is too confusing for most.  It's easier to understand that if you don't normally receive mail, but there are a few types of message that you do want to receive in mail, you Follow.  If you normally receive mail, but there are a few types of messages that you don't want, you Mute.


So if a thread you're following contains a hashtag you hate, tough.  Or you'll have to adjust your mail client's filtering rules.


JohnF


(I'm only pressing ENTER once between these paragraphs, but it's showing a LOT of space between them.  Let's see what it looks like when I press Send.)
Nightowl >8#
 

Frances wrote:>>Well, I have been thinking that the only bit I don’t care for is the absence of actual posts on the “home page” of each specific group. Someone who is less confident with the web might be confused when they go to that landing page for their group and they don’t see any messages. They must select “Archive” - perhaps not a particularly useful label.<<

My concern also. Some ideas:

Set a button on the Home page that clearly explains it's taking you to the Message Board or Discussion Board or whatever we wind up calling it. And if you keep using Archive for the label, indicate that it means both past and present posts.
OR
fix it where the last few messages show up on the Home page and when you click on one of them it jumps you into the messages/Archives etc.

Brenda
Nightowl >8#
 

Frances wrote:>>When I logged out, looked for my group in the directory and clicked on the link on my home page, it required me (properly) to log in. I guess though I am not happy with the idea of having to do a workaround at this point in Groups.io!<<

Not sure what workaround you are referring to. Do you mean having to direct your members to the messages, or do you mean having to log in again once you logged out?

I too agree, maybe there should be a better more obvious link/button or a few messages on the Home page to take you to the "archives" page.

Brenda
Frances
 

Brenda, 

By workaround, I mean that Groups.io is not designed to feature posts on each groups home page.
When you go to your group, you see this:

No actual posts are shown, just the top posters, the top hashtags, and the message history.
So the design doesn’t have the text of current posts are not featured in prime real estate on the page.

However, I now see that Mark has put in a link to the archive (In box) on this Beta page right under the heading Group Information!
Perhaps I will revamp mine to include a link in this area too!

Frances


On Jan 22 15, at 11:15 PM, Feathered Leader <featheredleader@...> wrote:

 I guess though I am not happy with the idea of having to do a workaround at this point in Groups.io!<<

Not sure what workaround you are referring to. Do you mean having to direct your members to the messages, or do you mean having to log in again once you logged out?
Frances
 

Hi

I meant to say:
So the design doesn’t have the text of current posts on the group home page, and are not featured in prime real estate on the page.

Frances

On Jan 22 15, at 11:34 PM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:

So the design doesn’t have the text of current posts are not featured in prime real estate on the page.
Nightowl >8#
 

Thanks for clearing that up. :) I made a suggestion about putting some of the posts there, or indicating to use a link or button to get to the Archives, so maybe that's what he did.


Brenda
Judy F.
 

Brenda, I think there was more to the original message than what you are quoting that explained what had to be done as the work around. 

 

Judy F.

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Feathered Leader [mailto:featheredleader@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:16 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: [beta] Re: New Subscription Options

 

Frances wrote:>>When I logged out, looked for my group in the directory and clicked on the link on my home page, it required me (properly) to log in. I guess though I am not happy with the idea of having to do a workaround at this point in Groups.io!<<

 

Not sure what workaround you are referring to. Do you mean having to direct your members to the messages, or do you mean having to log in again once you logged out?

 

I too agree, maybe there should be a better more obvious link/button or a few messages on the Home page to take you to the "archives" page.

 

Brenda
Nightowl >8#
 

Frances wrote:>>However, I now see that Mark has put in a link to the archive (In box) on this Beta page right under the heading Group Information! Perhaps I will revamp mine to include a link in this area too!<<

Warning: That isn't always a link to the group.io group. In his case, yes, it is. But it's actually the link that you can add to your Groups description as a website link. In his case, it's his group. But if you check out mine:

https://groups.io/org/groupsio/MMsanctuary

Group Information

You'll see that the link is NOT to MMSanctuary, but to my Yahoo Crusade Blog. So you have to put in the link that you want to be there in that space in description of group. Understand?

Hope that helps!

Brenda
Shal Farley
 

Brenda,

Give us simple options and advanced options.
That's what I'm trying to do.

Under simple options, use these concepts:

Individual messages
Daily Digest
Special Notices
No Mail
Got that, it isn't called "simple options", but those are the "Email Delivery" options on Mark's mock-up:
https://groups.io/static/newsubpage

If you adjust only that Option, leaving the other set to the default "All Messages", then you get the simple, Yahoo Groups-like behavior (assuming you don't mute any threads).

Under Advanced options:

The things you and Mark are describing about muted and followed stuff.
Exactly. Those are under "Message Selection".

The "Message Selection" options work subordinate to the "Email Delivery" options. Even if you use the Follow and Mute controls to limit the messages you receive, you receive them Individually, in a daily Digest, or not at all according to your Email Delivery selection.

-- Shal
Shal Farley
 

Frances,

But I really don't want to lose the possibility of First Message Only.
Easy.

Select "Following Only" then check "First Message Also". Then if you don't explicitly follow any threads or hashtags you'll get only the first message of every thread.

-- Shal
Shal Farley
 

JohnF,

It's easier to understand that if you don't normally receive mail, but
there are a few types of message that you do want to receive in mail,
you Follow.
Precisely. You select "Following Only" and follow what you want.

In your choice of Individual or Digest (or Special Notices or No Email if you want to turn them off, say while you're on vacation).

If you normally receive mail, but there are a few types of messages that
you don't want, you Mute.
Precisely. You select "All Messages" and you mute what you don't want.

Same delivery options.

-- Shal
Nightowl >8#
 

Shal wrote:>>Brenda, That's what I'm trying to do.
Under simple options, use these concepts:

Individual messages
Daily Digest
Special Notices
No Mail<<

Ah, sorry, I wasn't grasping that it was two different things. But it does help that the owners and moderators can change mail delivery options for members, because that is something we often have to do when they can't figure out what they want, or it somehow gets changed to something else.

Thanks, Shal.
Robert Maidment-Wilson
 

I'm with Brenda on this. If truth be told, all we really need (emphasis on need as opposed to nice to have) is what we had under Yahoo Classic Groups.

Robert
Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the O2 network.
From: Feathered Leader
Sent: Friday, 23 January 2015 03:41
To: beta@groups.io
Reply To: beta@groups.io
Subject: [beta] Re: New Subscription Options

Shal....

I'm really struggling to understand any of these descriptions. And if I can't understand them, many Yahoo Groups users won't either.

So I have a suggestion:

Give us simple options and advanced options.

Under simple options, use these concepts:

Individual messages
Daily Digest
Special Notices
No Mail

Under Advanced options:

The things you and Mark are describing about muted and followed stuff. That way, people like me who want to collect the messages in e-mail, but read them live on the site, can do it simply, and easily.

I had to have John read both Mark's post and yours on this, and still don't completely understand them. There needs to be a simplified manner, at least at first. Then maybe a help page somewhere to further explain the advanced options.

Brenda
Mark Fletcher
 

Shal,

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

 I think the concept of distinct exclude and include modes of operation is an unnecessary conceptual complication. And I still think that "Auto Follow Replies" usefully applies also to web-only readers (and hence doesn't belong in a Message Selection option, which I claim ought to be only for email).


Trying to wrap my head around things. Let me see if I have it correct: So, if in Message Selection, I have All Messages checked, you think that I should also be able to check Auto Follow Replies. The reasons being: if I've muted a hashtag, I'll still want to see any threads with that hashtag that I've replied in. Also, it's a way to quickly see on the web which threads I've participated in, by just looking at the Followed Threads tab. Is that correct?

I've updated https://groups.io/static/newsubpage , breaking out auto follow replies into it's own thing, and made the whole Message Selection area a collapsed advanced options area. Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Mark
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