Topics

moderated New notifications #update

 

Mark,

One thing I'm curious about is whether I need to aggregate these
notifications if they are generated within a certain limited time
period. ... I'm curious to know if that will be a common occurrence.
Seems like something your database could answer. My "why don't they just" moment: query for all page updates, group by page, compute the interval between updates, histogram the results.

This is something I was thinking about earlier. There is a tension between the desire for timely notification and a desire not to be flooded. One possibility would be to generally aggregate them, but make an exception for an update when there has not been a prior update within that limited time period; in that case post the notification immediately.

So for example, if the wiki were to have a burst of updates the first notice would go out immediately, but subsequent ones would be gathered and report something like "n more updates in the last [time period]".

I don't really have a good answer for how long that time period should be. More than a minute, less than a day seems obvious to me. Perhaps one hour would be a reasonable compromise.

Shal

 

Mark,

My expectation is that most people won't use the `Web/App Notify`
functionality;
Most people no, but moderators who moderate by web might well use them as a prompt to go see what happened. As a primarily email user I'll be getting push notices for them from my email interface.

Shal

 

Mark,

* Creating or modifying a wiki page now generates a #wiki
* Uploading photos to an album now generates #photo
* The existing file notification now comes tagged with a #file
I'm concerned about the name space collision with user-generated and used hashtags of the same names. This wasn't a big problem with the calendar events as those tags have a distinct form that's unlikely to be used for ordinary message postings.

Granted GMF and Group_Help are unusual cases, but those three nouns seem way too likely to collide with something a member might use. GMF has that problem with #wiki already, and has near misses with the other two (#files and #photos).

Given that these new ones aren't intended to be used by members, I don't think it would be a bad thing to make them hyphenated also, as in
#file-notice, #photo-notice, and #wiki-notice or something of the sort. Not quite the same semantics as #cal-notice, but close enough.

Shal

Andy Wedge
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:51 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Failing groups.io doing it, there should be a list somewhere, maybe in the documentation, about exactly what notification hashtags are available.
As the number of system hashtags seems to be growing, it would also be help to have them clearly identified on the hashtags page - perhaps by listing them in a separate block.

Andy

Duane
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 02:00 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
GMF has that problem with #wiki already, and has near misses with the other two (#files and #photos).
On one of my groups, I had a tag named #File that I've changed to #Files.  If I hadn't, no telling how it would have reacted with the notification system.

Duane

Jean Bennett
 

Mark—First, my extreme gratitude for the rollout of notifications. Got the first notification of an uploaded photo, and then clicked to be taken to the photo and got a 404 error that the photo wasn’t there (it is). Probably just a bug. I can send you the notification if you need it.

Jean

Andy Wedge
 

Hi Jean

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:15 AM, Jean Bennett wrote:
clicked to be taken to the photo and got a 404 error
this was reported earlier in this topic and Mark mentioned it had been fixed for new notifications https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25391

If your message with the link was generated before Mark fixed the problem you will still get a 404 error.  If you upload a new photo and get a new notification and link it should be OK now.

Cheers
Andy

Sandi D
 

In scrolling down the replies to this thread I don't see if there is a way for wiki edit notifications to reach only mods and owners. 

I don't want everyone in my group getting a wiki notification for every spelling and grammar error that I correct. Or for fixing a broken link. 

This is coming at a bad time as I was in the process of proofing our wiki. 

Thanks. 
--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.

 

Agreed. There has to be a way to turn each notification off, either completely, and/or per action (as with uploading files), and/or sending just to moderators. Preferably all of those options. 

The choice of “no email” for a regular hashtag is an example of square peg - round hole. It has a completely different meaning (and effect) for these notification tags. “Locked” and “moderated” and other settings also don’t really apply in any meaningful way. I think “notification tags“ should be completely separate objects, not regular hashtags, with their own settings etc. 


On Jun 18, 2020, at 4:09 AM, Sandi D <sandi.asgtechie@...> wrote:

In scrolling down the replies to this thread I don't see if there is a way for wiki edit notifications to reach only mods and owners. 

I don't want everyone in my group getting a wiki notification for every spelling and grammar error that I correct. Or for fixing a broken link. 

This is coming at a bad time as I was in the process of proofing our wiki. 

Thanks. 
--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 02:59 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Agreed. There has to be a way to turn each notification off, either completely, and/or per action (as with uploading files), and/or sending just to moderators. Preferably all of those options. 
Exactly. That would be great.
Victoria

 

 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 05:08 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
There's no way for me to know the reason why notifications aren't available in a browser, so I don't think I can be more specific on the message. But we'll add troubleshooting info to the docs
Mark,

I don't know how many people browse privately as a matter of course, but I suspect it might be non-trivial. I'm thinking you might consider adding something to the effect of "(Some browsers do not allow push notifications if browsing privately.)" below the line stating that the browser does not support notifications. It took several days for me, in concert with a few others here, to figure out what was wrong, and adding something general like that seems easy and might save people from resorting to a troubleshooting page.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:00 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
separate block
Yes, separate block. I'm about to go back and revisit Mark's question about whether notifications should be in a separate place, or something. I did not even understand the question at that point because I couldn't mine to work at all due to the private browsing issue. But the more I see what this is, the more I think there should be a separate "notifications" section, and "notifications" should be separate entities, with all of their appropriate attributes (such as to whom, and when, they are sent out and in what form), and with none of the inappropriate ones. Their hashtags could be incidental, just as with cal-notices. Hashtags would not be the main mechanism for them.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Duane
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:09 AM, Sandi D wrote:
I don't want everyone in my group getting a wiki notification for every spelling and grammar error that I correct. Or for fixing a broken link.
I did an informal survey of some of my members.  No one wants any/all these notifications sent to them.  They don't care what goes on behind the scenes, they just want useful information that is posted to the group that may help them with problems.  Even as a moderator/owner, there are very few that I'd want to see, mostly when something on the group is changed - photos added, wiki page added/changed, file uploaded, messages edited, etc. (and then via email, not instant browser notifications) - but not notify the whole group.  There's already been a flurry of complaints on GMF due to the notices being sent to the groups.

Regards,
Duane

 

I requested wiki change notifications but *always* assumed they would be available only to moderators. That is a problem overall: there is no mechanism to make sure a given notification is sent only to moderators. With the new scheme I'm suggesting, all the possible notifications would be on one page (the notification specifications, not their hashtags). Certain notifications would by default be available/viewable only to moderators, and/or constrained by owners to be available to certain moderators with the correct permissions. You could choose not to have wiki notifications go out at all, or go out only to mods; same with all the other kinds. The notification hashtags could be specified on the page for each notification. The hashtags would also be in a separate block, and would have certain options automatically unchecked by default or simply not available (e.g. the problematic "no email," also probably "moderated," etc.) ("Locked" could be set by default so that nobody can answer the notification, but could be changed by mods if desired.)


On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:08 AM Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:09 AM, Sandi D wrote:
I don't want everyone in my group getting a wiki notification for every spelling and grammar error that I correct. Or for fixing a broken link.
I did an informal survey of some of my members.  No one wants any/all these notifications sent to them.  They don't care what goes on behind the scenes, they just want useful information that is posted to the group that may help them with problems.  Even as a moderator/owner, there are very few that I'd want to see, mostly when something on the group is changed - photos added, wiki page added/changed, file uploaded, messages edited, etc. (and then via email, not instant browser notifications) - but not notify the whole group.  There's already been a flurry of complaints on GMF due to the notices being sent to the groups.

Regards,
Duane


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 08:08 AM, Duane wrote:
There's already been a flurry of complaints on GMF due to the notices being sent to the groups.
I'm not surprised! There has to be a simple and quick way for mods to turn each notification, and later to specify details of how and to whom it is sent. Meanwhile I'd settle for a quick-and-dirty "off" switch for each one. Possibly they should even be off by default.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 04:08 PM, Duane wrote:
I did an informal survey of some of my members.  No one wants any/all these notifications sent to them.
OK; I haven't done a survey but I suspect that what Duane said about nobody wanting a blizzard of notifications is entirely correct.

After a member uploaded some photos to the group I moderate 2 notifications were generated. I then edited our photo archive index which is held (with links) in the group wiki; another notification sent out. On the plus side the notification about the photos enabled anyone to find them very easily, but the wiki notification only identified which page had been edited, so was of lesser benefit to the wider membership.

I suspect that a group membership may become at first frustrated and eventually actively annoyed at being over - notified. The more granular a notification system is the greater is the potential for annoyance on the part of a group membership, especially since anecdote tells us that many or most members never use the web UI at all. 

I would ask - plead even -  that moderators should have the option of turning individual motifications off at least until a better way of managing them can be identified.

What would be the practicalities of sending a "Notifications Digest" once per day per group? At least it would increase the daily message tally by just one rather than n, where n is a potentially large integer.

Chris

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 09:42 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
I would ask - plead even -  that moderators should have the option of turning individual motifications off at least until a better way of managing them can be identified.
Pleading and begging here also. We need at least a rudimentary "off" switch asap.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Michael Pavan
 

While these Notifications might be informative and perhaps useful to some, the additional email traffic they generate is unwelcome for many people, especially if their Inbox is already very busy. They are likely to be deleted without being read 'messages' and are as annoying as SPAM, plus their effectiveness may be like the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" all the time.

Automatic 'System Notifications' remind me of websites that require clicking through many pages to get to desired content, apparently to achieve a Marketing goal of high 'click rates'.

They may be good/great for those that want all the extra messages, but an unnecessary nuisance for others;
e.g. I have a Group that had 311 messages in 20 years for its monthly in-person meetings (Dances, and Musicians playing and/or singing), which Covid-19 has canceled indefinitely. I created 2 Wiki pages listing various online events that may be of interest which I've updated 313 times total in 69 days (as I discover them, often at the 'last minute').
These new notifications would have increased its message frequency rate from 2 to 136 per month!

Yes, after the 'shock' of the first #wiki Notifications, I have set: Hashtags > Edit Tag and checked the No Email box.
I do not look forward to having to do that for each new #hashtag surprise, and for each of my Groups


Hashtags (and Notifications) are like graffiti - some people like/love them, others want to remove and prevent them.

I already had Admin > Settings: Message Policies
set to:
-Hashtags Required (unchecked)
-Hashtags Permissions: "Messages from members can only be tagged with existing hashtags, new hashtags will be removed."

Please add:
-Hashtags Prohibited (checkbox)
AND
-Hashtags Permissions: "Messages from members tagged with hashtags, hashtags will be removed."
-Hashtags Permissions: "Messages tagged with hashtags, hashtags will be removed."
-Hashtags Permissions: "Messages tagged with hashtags, will be Moderated."
AND
Allow Moderators (with permission) to Edit Message (in Archives) to remove hashtags


Unless there is a Security need, features should be Opt-In (which is respectful), rather than require awkward and time consuming Opt-Out workarounds to curb Groups.io 'Junk Mail'.

Thanks,
Michael

Judy F.
 

Hi Duane, couldn't have said it better myself. 

I think with the large number of groups here, changes need to be taken into consideration so all groups have options to use or not use the function.

Thank you,
Judy F.
SW Florida  - USA

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:08 AM, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:09 AM, Sandi D wrote:
I don't want everyone in my group getting a wiki notification for every spelling and grammar error that I correct. Or for fixing a broken link.
I did an informal survey of some of my members.  No one wants any/all these notifications sent to them.  They don't care what goes on behind the scenes, they just want useful information that is posted to the group that may help them with problems.  Even as a moderator/owner, there are very few that I'd want to see, mostly when something on the group is changed - photos added, wiki page added/changed, file uploaded, messages edited, etc. (and then via email, not instant browser notifications) - but not notify the whole group.  There's already been a flurry of complaints on GMF due to the notices being sent to the groups.

Regards,
Duane

 On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:08 AM, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:09 AM, Sandi D wrote:
I don't want everyone in my group getting a wiki notification for every spelling and grammar error that I correct. Or for fixing a broken link.
I did an informal survey of some of my members.  No one wants any/all these notifications sent to them.  They don't care what goes on behind the scenes, they just want useful information that is posted to the group that may help them with problems.  Even as a moderator/owner, there are very few that I'd want to see, mostly when something on the group is changed - photos added, wiki page added/changed, file uploaded, messages edited, etc. (and then via email, not instant browser notifications) - but not notify the whole group.  There's already been a flurry of complaints on GMF due to the notices being sent to the groups.

Regards,
Duane

 

Michael,

While these Notifications might be informative and perhaps useful to
some, the additional email traffic they generate is unwelcome for many
people, especially if their Inbox is already very busy.
Impudent response: sounds like your members need to learn what the Mute link in the message footer is for.

In fact I don't have a problem with having a group option to Mute the new system notification hashtags for all members, as each new hashtag is implemented. Retroactively perhaps for the three recent ones (#file, #photo & #wiki). But I wouldn't do that to the well established #cal-xxx hashtags.

I'm not exactly sure what form such a control might take. Given that the list of system notification messages is likely to remain relatively short (eight or ten now, maybe a score later?) I was thinking it could be added as a Default Notification Settings panel in the group's Default Sub Settings tab.

But that doesn't address the question of how to apply it to existing members. That might need to be done as a one-time sweep by Groups.io, at applying this new panel to existing members, with the notification hashtags default set to Mute (Forever).

Shal