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moderated More attachment size selections requested


Glenn
 

Since many email providers limit incoming emails to 10MB and 25MB, it would be nice if groups.io allowed those limits to be selected by the users for their incoming attachment sizes, avoiding the need to click through to the attachment for more of the incoming messages from groups.io.

Better, would be to allow a specific number of MB, rather than just a menu of choices.


Duane
 

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 08:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
it would be nice if groups.io allowed those limits to be selected by the users
All they have to do is choose Unlimited on their Subscription settings and they'll get whatever someone sends.

Duane


Glenn
 

Almost true, Duane: what if someone sends more than 10 or 25MB? Then it bounces.


Duane
 

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:01 PM, Glenn wrote:
what if someone sends more than 10 or 25MB? Then it bounces.
Then they go to the site to read it.  I can't think of a good reason to be sending an attachment that large to a group though.  There can be a lot of overhead involved in sending something as an attachment, often 50% of the original file size.  It would make more sense to me to upload it into a file (or photo) and let people decide for themselves if they want to use the bandwidth to view it (without the overhead.)

As a side note, I have my subscription set to 0 for max attachment size, just for situations such as this.

Duane


Glenn
 

Do they get a bounce notification? Or does that only go to adminsitrators? How would they even know the message exists, if it bounces?

And, as you do, if folks don't want large messages, they can set their max attachment size appropriately.

The attachment overhead is about 33%, not 50%, from BASE64 encoding.

Large attachments have their place for some groups. Having it show up in email automatically is a convenience. Less interactivity required, stored locally on the computer for later. Some folks like it that way, some folks like it your way.


Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 09:31 AM, Glenn wrote:
Do they get a bounce notification? Or does that only go to adminsitrators? How would they even know the message exists, if it bounces?
Glenn; if an email user is sent an attachment that exceeds their mail provider's limit then the provider is liable to bounce it; the user will get no notification at all, and a group owner.moderator will only know about the bounce if they search for it on the individual user's email delivery record. 

By setting a maximum attachment size a user tells Groups.io not to send attachments to them that exceed that setting but to send a link so that the user can go and find it for themselves. Duane's setting of "0" means that every attachment appears as a link, and it is a perfectly acceptable setting.

Like Duane I am at a loss to see why "huge" attachments should be required, and there is a potential major downside to them. There are occasions when mail providers more or less refuse to play nicely with Groups.io, and with a great deal of traffic once generated by Yahoo (groups) now being sent by Groups.io it hands a ready - made excuse to mail providers to start bouncing more of it. Once that starts then users will find themselves getting no traffic whatsoever, not just getting large attachments bounced. I would argue that that would be a significantly greater inconvenience than just having to click a link in an email to find an attachment.

Chris


Christos G. Psarras
 

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 04:31 AM, Glenn wrote:
Large attachments have their place for some groups.

My suggestion for something like this, i.e. a useful and very large file that is of benefit to the whole group, is to place it in the Files (or Photos, depending on file type), then include the link to it in the email; if it helps, include a small preview of that file in the message.  Then folks can download it if they want to; with files, it's the direct link to the file and clicking it (or right-click-SaveAs) will open or save the file, with photos one has to follw the link first to open up the group's Photos, then they can download it from there.

Cheers,
Christos


Charles Roberts
 

Been doing this for years on Yahoo....works well.

Chuck

On Dec 20, 2019 12:38 PM, "Christos G. Psarras" <christos@...> wrote:
On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 04:31 AM, Glenn wrote:
Large attachments have their place for some groups.

My suggestion for something like this, i.e. a useful and very large file that is of benefit to the whole group, is to place it in the Files (or Photos, depending on file type), then include the link to it in the email; if it helps, include a small preview of that file in the message.  Then folks can download it if they want to; with files, it's the direct link to the file and clicking it (or right-click-SaveAs) will open or save the file, with photos one has to follw the link first to open up the group's Photos, then they can download it from there.

Cheers,
Christos


Janis
 

I do not want large attachments sent to my group and would like a way to set a limit so that any email with a large attachment bounces back to the sender with a notice thst the attachment is too large.  I moderate attachments but do not want to bother with rejecting the large files.  Would prefer them to be bounced before I see them.


Charles Roberts
 

Makes sense to me!

Chuck

On Dec 20, 2019 2:29 PM, Janis <jhurstartist@...> wrote:
I do not want large attachments sent to my group and would like a way to set a limit so that any email with a large attachment bounces back to the sender with a notice thst the attachment is too large.  I moderate attachments but do not want to bother with rejecting the large files.  Would prefer them to be bounced before I see them.


Glenn
 

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:
On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 04:31 AM, Glenn wrote:
Large attachments have their place for some groups.

My suggestion for something like this, i.e. a useful and very large file that is of benefit to the whole group, is to place it in the Files (or Photos, depending on file type), then include the link to it in the email; if it helps, include a small preview of that file in the message.  Then folks can download it if they want to; with files, it's the direct link to the file and clicking it (or right-click-SaveAs) will open or save the file, with photos one has to follw the link first to open up the group's Photos, then they can download it from there.
In my testing, it's not quite direct... Clicking the link in the email opens their browser, then they have to login in the browser, before they can download it. That's quite a bit more involved that saving an attachment that has already been downloaded with an email.

 I


Duane
 

On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 06:17 PM, Glenn wrote:
Clicking the link in the email opens their browser, then they have to login in the browser, before they can download it.
Only if they've logged out or deleted cookies.  You'll stay logged in indefinitely as long as you visit the site at least once every 30 days and don't delete cookies.  In that case, the file pops up immediately when the browser opens.

Duane


Glenn
 

On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 07:08 PM, Duane wrote:
In that case, the file pops up immediately when the browser opens.

It's a large file, remember? They have to wait for the download, before they can see it. With an attachment, it is already downloaded.


Duane
 

On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 09:00 PM, Glenn wrote:
They have to wait for the download, before they can see it. With an attachment, it is already downloaded.
Seems to me they're waiting either way.  Actually a bit longer for attachments due to the overhead.  Either can be done in the background, if wanted.

Duane


Duane
 

On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 09:00 PM, Glenn wrote:
It's a large file, remember? They have to wait for the download, before they can see it. With an attachment, it is already downloaded.
It's not necessarily downloaded with the message.  I have Thunderbird set to leave an attachment on the server until I specifically open it.  So for me, it takes longer to open an attachment than it would a direct file link due to the overhead.  This thread is getting a bit off the original subject.

As far as having larger size choices for download, it might create an extra load on the outgoing email servers, depending on how the sending is handled.  I know that some time back, someone included a big attachment to quite a few people and it overloaded the system.  I believe Mark has made adjustments to try to avoid that, but no sense putting it to the test. ;>)

Duane


Glenn
 

As you point out, whether or not it is already downloaded is a function of settings in the email client. My Thunderbird is set to always download attachments, so there are there when I get to the computer, which has been faithfully checking for new email regularly while I am doing other things. And the setting you mention is only available to IMAP clients not POP3 clients, which always download attachments.

If this thread has gone off topic, it is because you keep making suggestions that stray from the original point, in an attempt to convince me that the original point isn't valid, and I keep pointing out that your preferences are not universal, and that other people have different settings and opinions and processes. While your suggestions have some relationship to the original point, none of them have been convincing to me thus far.


Glenn
 

On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 07:08 PM, Duane wrote:
Only if they've logged out or deleted cookies.  You'll stay logged in indefinitely as long as you visit the site at least once every 30 days and don't delete cookies.  In that case, the file pops up immediately when the browser opens.

Duane

 Yes, and I have my browser set to delete cookies on every exit, to avoid reduce tracking. A user-friendly email-based group shouldn't require keeping a login active on the host server.


 

On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 11:21 PM Glenn <v+gio@g.nevcal.com> wrote:

 Yes, and I have my browser set to delete cookies on every exit, to avoid reduce tracking. A user-friendly email-based group shouldn't require keeping a login active on the host server.
_._,_._,_

1) We don't track users. 
2) If we didn't require a login to access attachments, that would be a rather large security hole for private groups.


Mark


Glenn
 

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 09:24 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
1) We don't track users.
Excellent. But staying logged in still requires the cookie, and if the browser was hacked they could learn cookie, and continue hacking to the group.

2) If we didn't require a login to access attachments, that would be a rather large security hole for private groups.
Oh absolutely! You _need_ the login to access attachments!  But it does make it more cumbersome to access the attachment, for people that do delete the cookies, but could receive larger emails... if only there were options larger than 5MB, but smaller than unlimited, to avoid bounces.

Another idea I've had, but realize it would be significant work, would be to make groups.io accessible via email protocols, such as IMAP, particularly.  A user logging in via their email client could see one IMAP folder for each group they belong to, with the emails in the folder being the postings for that group. Posters wouldn't be limited by ISP limits on email size, distribution wouldn't either. IMAP clients & servers already have options (as Duane pointed out) to download attachments in advance or only when requested. The SMTP half of this email server would restrict To: to groups.io group email addresses, and From: to members of those groups, as per the group and member settings.

The benefits of this idea would be fewer limits on communications, fewer ISPs getting feathers ruffled by the volume of Bcc: addressed email traffic.  Besides the complexity of adding such an email server, the costs would be to teach users how to have one more email address, used only for groups.io; extra bandwidth usage as emails would be retrieved from groups.io for each user, instead of the (assumed) bundled approach of sending one message to each ISP, where one (or hopefully more) group member has an account, it would be more point-to-point.

This could live alongside the current mechanisms, so there would be no requirement that group member switch to using a new email server. It would make it easier to post large attachments without ISP limits, when that is appropriate, and it would make it possible to retrieve large attachments without ISP limits, when they exist.

But simply having a couple extra limits of 10MB and 25MB would probably meet most of the needs, or configurable number of MB with a maximum of 25MB.  In fact, the maximums for the bulk of email addresses are publicly documented, and don't change very often, so for common email domains, the limit could be that of the documented domain limit.