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locked Group transfers feedback so far


 

Summarizing the feedback so far from my proposal on group transfers. The original proposal:

- Create the new group at Groups.io
- Change the description of your existing group to include a link to the new group at Groups.io. Something like "This group has moved to https://groups.io/org/groupsio/GROUPNAME".
- Email the member list and a link to the old group to a support account I'll set up.
- I'll verify that the old group's description has been changed, and directly add the members to the new group.

Several people thought it was a good plan.

Marlin brought up the issue that it can be difficult to get a complete member list out of Y! Groups. Also, there's a potential for mischief on the part of a moderator trying to hijack a group. I think that potential is probably pretty low. And Ronaldo mentioned that there should be a warning against abusing the group transfer system and that we should track complaints. I completely agree with this.

Shal had a good point:

While this method verifies that you're in contact with an owner (or sufficiently privileged moderator) of a group, you have no verification that the addresses provided actually come from the membership list of that group. In that sense it is only marginally better than an open Add policy.

And he had a suggestion:

Perhaps have the list owner create a temporary Yahoo Account, make it a moderator or owner of the old group, and then provide you with the sign-in credentials of that account (probably better via a web page than email?). With those credentials you can have automation sign in to the group and download the members list directly.

I think that'd definitely eliminate the possibility of shenanigans, but I also think that's a very high bar for a group owner to go through in order to transfer their group..

Here's another idea: What if, instead of doing the transfer all at once, I pick a random set of email addresses to add to the group. When they're added, the email welcoming them to the group mentions the old group name and asks them to reply if they were not a part of that group. I could set it up so that the transfer happens over a couple of days (a random set of people get added every day), and that the group is 'locked' until the transfer is complete, meaning no messages could go out to the group during that time. If I get complaints, the transfer process is halted.


Thanks,
Mark
(this reminds me of a future feature I'd like to add, something that helps people create summaries of threads)


 

Mark,

Perhaps have the list owner create a temporary Yahoo Account, make it a
moderator or owner of the old group, and then provide you with the
sign-in credentials of that account (probably better via a web page than
email?). With those credentials you can have automation sign in to the
group and download the members list directly.

I think that'd definitely eliminate the possibility of shenanigans, but
I also think that's a very high bar for a group owner to go through in
order to transfer their group..
I'm curious what makes that a high bar?

I was thinking that for most people using or creating a least-privileged mod account would be a lower bar than figuring out how to export the email address list from one's Yahoo Group. Especially for groups of over 1000 members.

The one potential "high bar" I can see is if one doesn't already have a "test" account or other fallow account to use, and also doesn't have a mobile phone number to give to Yahoo's account creation process.

Here's another idea: What if, instead of doing the transfer all at once,
I pick a random set of email addresses to add to the group. ...
Advice to moderators: if you have any known malcontents in your group leave their address(es) off the list you give to Mark, lest they veto the move.

-- Shal


 

On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
I'm curious what makes that a high bar?

I was thinking that for most people using or creating a least-privileged mod account would be a lower bar than figuring out how to export the email address list from one's Yahoo Group. Especially for groups of over 1000 members.

The one potential "high bar" I can see is if one doesn't already have a "test" account or other fallow account to use, and also doesn't have a mobile phone number to give to Yahoo's account creation process.

Well, maybe I'm wrong. Do you think most moderators have a throwaway test account already signed up to their group? And that they wouldn't mind giving access to that account to someone else?

So, in this scenario, the steps would be:
- Make sure you have a test account signed up as moderator to your group
- Create a group on Groups.io
- Give me the account's log in information
- I grab the user list and direct add into your new group


Mark


Judy F.
 

Mark, I own sever Yahoo Groups and have full moderator control to at least 5 others.  We just have the main account.  With one of them having more than 17,000 members, that more than enough work.  LOL  I think this is the case with most of the sewing/embroidery groups out there. 

 

 

Judy F.

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Mark Fletcher [mailto:markf@corp.groups.io]
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 7:08 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Group transfers feedback so far

 

On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

I'm curious what makes that a high bar?

I was thinking that for most people using or creating a least-privileged mod account would be a lower bar than figuring out how to export the email address list from one's Yahoo Group. Especially for groups of over 1000 members.

The one potential "high bar" I can see is if one doesn't already have a "test" account or other fallow account to use, and also doesn't have a mobile phone number to give to Yahoo's account creation process.

Well, maybe I'm wrong. Do you think most moderators have a throwaway test account already signed up to their group? And that they wouldn't mind giving access to that account to someone else?

 

So, in this scenario, the steps would be:

- Make sure you have a test account signed up as moderator to your group

- Create a group on Groups.io

- Give me the account's log in information

- I grab the user list and direct add into your new group

 

 

Mark

 


Marlin47
 

Mark, a question....    Why bother with a test account?

Why not simply join the group yourself, and then have the owner of the group find your membership on the membership list,

and click on,  "Make Owner".

Done.

Marlin



On 1/6/2015 6:07 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
I'm curious what makes that a high bar?

I was thinking that for most people using or creating a least-privileged mod account would be a lower bar than figuring out how to export the email address list from one's Yahoo Group. Especially for groups of over 1000 members.

The one potential "high bar" I can see is if one doesn't already have a "test" account or other fallow account to use, and also doesn't have a mobile phone number to give to Yahoo's account creation process.

Well, maybe I'm wrong. Do you think most moderators have a throwaway test account already signed up to their group? And that they wouldn't mind giving access to that account to someone else?

So, in this scenario, the steps would be:
- Make sure you have a test account signed up as moderator to your group
- Create a group on Groups.io
- Give me the account's log in information
- I grab the user list and direct add into your new group


Mark

_._,_._


Linda
 

Hi Mark,
Marlin's suggestion is perfect!  When we're ready to go, I have two groups for you to join and you'll be promoted to owner just as soon as I notify the membership to expect the transfer.  All things considered, this is by far the simplest and best option.
 
Thanks!
Linda


 

Mark,

Well, maybe I'm wrong.
Or maybe not. I'm probably a poor judge of what a new or casual user considers easy or hard.

Do you think most moderators have a throwaway test account already
signed up to their group?
That was two of the first bits of advice I learned when I joined a moderator help group: 1) have a second owner for the group, even if it is yourself with a second Yahoo Account; 2) have an account that you control signed up as a member of the group, so you can see the group's features as a member does.

The first is just insurance against having your primary account closed or compromised, or otherwise becoming unavailable. If the backup owner is an account of your own and not used for much else it could be (temporarily) demoted to moderator with no extra privileges, then used for this purpose.

The second is part of learning how Yahoo Groups works, so that you can answer members' questions like "why can I see my email address? Does everyone see it?". A "member" account could be (temporarily) promoted to moderator with no extra privileges, then used for this purpose.

Now, do "most" moderators (or owners, specifically) do this? Strictly by the numbers I'd have to say "no", as there are vastly more Yahoo Groups in existence than there is combined membership in the moderator help groups. But of the group owners that might be considering moving to another service the odds are probably better - those are already the subset that are paying attention to their groups.

And that they wouldn't mind giving access to that account to someone
else?
The key there is what other things are tied to that account - do they use it for email correspondence, a high ranking in Answers, a stash of photos at Flickr? Other uses would rule out (in my mind) giving the account credentials to someone. But I wouldn't do those things in an account I'm using as a backup.

To alleviate the concern your instructions for the process could make some suggestions:

1) Use (or create) an account which isn't used with other Yahoo services.

2) Make the account a moderator of the group, but uncheck all of the moderator privilege boxes.

3) Change the password to the account before giving it to Groups.io, and make sure this temporary password isn't a password you've used elsewhere.

4) After the transfer completes, change the password to the account again.

So, in this scenario, the steps would be:
- Make sure you have a test account signed up as moderator to your group
- Create a group on Groups.io
- Give me the account's log in information
- I grab the user list and direct add into your new group
Sounds good and simple to me.

-- Shal


 

Marlin,

Mark, a question.... Why bother with a test account?

Why not simply join the group yourself, and then have the owner of
the group find your membership on the membership list, and click on,
"Make Owner".
Brilliant. That would work too, and might be a lot easier for most owners to handle.

They wouldn't need to make Mark's account an owner, the Moderator role with none of the privilege checkboxes marked is sufficient to read the Manage Members list.

-- Shal


Frances
 

Once the members are "moved" to Groups.io, what does those people have to do? Do they automatically have sign-ins to Groups.io? Does their password follow them? I guess these may seem simplistic, but I would like to know to warn my group members. 

The preparation from my end is easy, thanks to all of you for working that out! 


 

Frances,

Once the members are "moved" to Groups.io, what does those people have to do? Do they automatically have sign-ins to Groups.io? Does their password follow them? I guess these may seem simplistic, but I would like to know to warn my group members. 

If they were already members of Groups.io, their groups.io account wouldn't change. If they had never joined a Groups.io group, their accounts would not have passwords set. If they wanted to log into the web site, they'd go through a process to create a new password for their account. This is the same thing that happens when someone joins a group through email.

Mark


Frances
 

Hi Mark

If they are not already a member of Groups.io, what can they do after they are moved from YahooGroups without further steps on their part? Can they post (send emails) to my group? Will they get posts emailed to them from other members of the group without taking further action?

Or will they have to set up Groups.io accounts first in order to do anything?

I realize they won’t be able to log into the Groups.io website since they won’t have Groups.io passwords.
But for awhile, can they just ignore that they aren’t full Groups.io members? At least until they want to look at older posts, files, wiki, and all those other good things? And still post by email and receive posts by email without creating a Groups.io account?

My thinking - it will be a challenge for them just to remember the right email address for posting! And the unfamiliar way emails are threaded. Etc. Etc.

I assume their current preferences in YahooGroups won’t be carried over - Daily Digest, each message, etc. That might be an enticement to fully join up!

My group is restricted but unmoderated.

Frances




On Jan 7 15, at 12:38 AM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

If they were already members of Groups.io, their groups.io account wouldn't change. If they had never joined a Groups.io group, their accounts would not have passwords set. If they wanted to log into the web site, they'd go through a process to create a new password for their account. This is the same thing that happens when someone joins a group through email.



 

Hi Frances,


If they are not already a member of Groups.io, what can they do after they are moved from YahooGroups?

Can they post (send emails) to my group?
Or will they have to set up Groups.io accounts first in order to do anything?

Will they get posts emailed to them from other members of the group?

Yep. They will be able to fully participate through email. Only functions accessed through the website require an account with a password.


Mark


Frances
 

Perfect!

Frances

On Jan 7 15, at 12:46 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi Frances,


If they are not already a member of Groups.io, what can they do after they are moved from YahooGroups?

Can they post (send emails) to my group?
Or will they have to set up Groups.io accounts first in order to do anything?

Will they get posts emailed to them from other members of the group?

Yep. They will be able to fully participate through email. Only functions accessed through the website require an account with a password.


Mark


Linda
 

Hi Frances,
I would guess that the default mail delivery setting for transferees will be Individual messages. 
 
I'm sure the email notification of transfer will contain a link to the group, which will lead to a login page, where new members of Groups.io will be encouraged to setup a password for the complete Groups.io experience and to change their group subscription settings. 
 
The notification email should suggest Saving the email because it will also have info on the email address of the group (for posting messages) and the group owner email address. 
 
Linda


RS
 

Hello all,


I am wondering how feasible it would be to actually develop in the shenanigan-proof direction vs having a report and response system that people could trust.  For example, if someone is added to a group without permission, there should be a simple e-mail command to add their email to alist of "un-add-able" emails maintained by io.  So, if you suddenly find yourself getting messages from an io you did not ever plan to join, and that idea gives you problems, you have the option to disallow future direct adds for that email.  Your email goes in a list maintained by io, and you can never again be directly added. You could change this later if you join io with that same email address, using a control in your profile.  This way someone can't simply recreate the group and retry you again.  Your address is blocked at a higher level.

Perhaps add a link or command in the footer that reads:

Report This Group (which then gives you a list of options to report, ie that you were added by this owner without your permission, being spammed, abusive behvior, etc.).
Disallow All Direct Adds By Groups.io (as above, blacklists you from direct adds by any .io until you join and re-allow.)

Shenanigans are bound to happen, despite all best efforts.  I think if you make it easier for people to undo them, as well as report and prevent, they will be happy enough, and it also shows you the trends in shenanigans, so you can develop around what's actually a problem.  You might even consider an auto-suspend option if a group gets numerous complaints reported via that option, and it triggers a review by the io staff.  That does rely on you having the people, granted, but if the threshold is hit, perhaps certain summaries of data can be sent to the io admin such as if the reporting email was directly added to the group, is an io member, how long they were in the group, number of posts to the group, etc.  Review can be easy with the right data in front of you.  It could also rely on a mod of the suspended group triggering an "appeal" feature with a CAPTCHA code.  That way, if someone developed a bot of some kind, a human had to be involved to request the review.

Just a few thoughts I had while seeing how the verification process discussion was unfolding.



Duane
 

On a somewhat related item, YG has/had a setting to disallow invitations. I think this could be useful at times. The invitation and add functions should be separate options.

Duane


RS
 

"(this reminds me of a future feature I'd like to add, something that helps people create summaries of threads)"

Missed this before, but it sounds very interesting.  Seems like it would be quite useful to some of the type sof groups I have been in.