Topics

moderated Free to Premium Expanse #suggestion


billsf9c
 

Maybe a better title is;
Losing Ground to #Google.

A treasurer-CoOwner informed me that he wrote IO, suggesting an intermediate step between 1 & 20 Gigs.

He WANTS to contribute to IO, and see it continue, but feels the 1 to 20 Gig jump is excessive. I don't feel it's due to cost, although that must be attached to the issue.

It may be an accounting matter. Accepting under 20$ / month (an option over annual payment,) is probably burdensome. An increment between might be at 5 Gigs, but not allow monthly payments. Maybe no Premium add-ons would be allowed.

IO has 4 levels. That's hard to put on a bell-curve. Even a graph seems unsmooth.

But I hugely fear that despite a comparable sized and active list of 2000, actually TWO, this size, I feel 1 has and 1 is goingnto google because they cannot see that Free will contain them for 4-6 more years.

They see 15 GIGS FREE.

IO is "Good Enough."
But "Perception is Reality."

You gotta compete.
As anoast communications security guy, I watched google and email services. I watched the "memory allowed.per account," almost explode. And things related to that and google that I shant discuss.

Almost NO group will use 5 Gigs or 10.or 15 for decades. Yes, some movie.or photo group will. Block movies.over 5 megs???

There will alwys be that one guy at the all-you-can eat that's a small problem. But the all-you-can-eat is up on a billboard next door to your burger joint.

Consider, with yahoo again poised, what you will lose, permanently, if you wait a month to set an upgraded policy. From my perspective you are a mom'n pop competing with McDonalds. You'll always have us... buy wouldn't you like some of them? I cannot sway groups because members cannot WILL not take time to understand the nuance.

They see 1 and they see 15 and they see $220. And they don't understand. GIVE them 15 Gigs and they won't use them in their lifetime... except that 1 big guy. He is the cost of doing business and he's 1 guy in a hundred... a thousand. Time to go all-in. Don't have 15 G for everyone? You don't order more meat until the fridge is low.

You're Great!
But you also have to COMPETE.

Diesel is great - but it's not easy to find a pump at Joe's Diner is whatever that town was when you were lost, once, 20 years ago - so you bought a gasser. Diesel, all but locked out.because the signs don't SAY diesel available soon. I can think of all.sorts of ways to sell this an an Intro offer and leverage it.

C'mon! Google will be around, but give them a rash, eh? Chafe their dang derrier!

Don't wait a dang month...! A week is enough time to not have to shoot entirely from the hip. Time to play with the big boys... on their turf. (The sloth have a name?)

With great appreciation,
BillSF9c


 

I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing for. Are you saying that the free plan needs to have more storage, so that we'll get more groups (of the kind that will only use our free plan)? Economically, that may work for a business model based on advertising, where absolute numbers of groups/users are most important. But that's not us. 

Thanks,
Mark

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 1:34 PM billsf9c via groups.io <OOWONBS=Netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:
Maybe a better title is;
Losing Ground to #Google.

A treasurer-CoOwner informed me that he wrote IO, suggesting an intermediate step between 1 & 20 Gigs.

He WANTS to contribute to IO, and see it continue, but feels the 1 to 20 Gig jump is excessive. I don't feel it's due to cost, although that must be attached to the issue.

It may be an accounting matter. Accepting under 20$ / month (an option over annual payment,) is probably burdensome. An increment between might be at 5 Gigs, but not allow monthly payments. Maybe no Premium add-ons would be allowed.

IO has 4 levels. That's hard to put on a bell-curve. Even a graph seems unsmooth.

But I hugely fear that despite a comparable sized and active list of 2000, actually TWO, this size, I feel 1 has and 1 is goingnto google because they cannot see that Free will contain them for 4-6 more years.

They see 15 GIGS FREE.

IO is "Good Enough."
But "Perception is Reality."

You gotta compete.
As anoast communications security guy, I watched google and email services. I watched the "memory allowed.per account," almost explode. And things related to that and google that I shant discuss.

Almost NO group will use 5 Gigs or 10.or 15 for decades. Yes, some movie.or photo group will. Block movies.over 5 megs???

There will alwys be that one guy at the all-you-can eat that's a small problem. But the all-you-can-eat is up on a billboard next door to your burger joint.

Consider, with yahoo again poised, what you will lose, permanently, if you wait a month to set an upgraded policy. From my perspective you are a mom'n pop competing with McDonalds. You'll always have us... buy wouldn't you like some of them? I cannot sway groups because members cannot WILL not take time to understand the nuance.

They see 1 and they see 15 and they see $220. And they don't understand. GIVE them 15 Gigs and they won't use them in their lifetime... except that 1 big guy. He is the cost of doing business and he's 1 guy in a hundred... a thousand. Time to go all-in. Don't have 15 G for everyone? You don't order more meat until the fridge is low.

You're Great!
But you also have to COMPETE.

Diesel is great - but it's not easy to find a pump at Joe's Diner is whatever that town was when you were lost, once, 20 years ago - so you bought a gasser. Diesel, all but locked out.because the signs don't SAY diesel available soon. I can think of all.sorts of ways to sell this an an Intro offer and leverage it.

C'mon! Google will be around, but give them a rash, eh? Chafe their dang derrier!

Don't wait a dang month...! A week is enough time to not have to shoot entirely from the hip. Time to play with the big boys... on their turf. (The sloth have a name?)

With great appreciation,
BillSF9c


Donald Hellen
 

Mark . . .

On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:55:12 -0700, "Mark Fletcher"
<markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing for. Are you saying that the free plan needs to have more storage, so that we'll get more groups (of the kind that will only use our free plan)? Economically, that may work for a business model based on advertising, where absolute numbers of groups/users are most important. But that's not us.
I'm not sure that most of his post explained it well, but I think he
was suggesting a plan between premium and basic. Maybe call it
enhanced (doesn't matter what to call it). Charge perhaps $5/mo for
5GB. Or instead you could make it a 10GB plan for the mid-grade one,
and charge $10. I don't think you need an infinite number of steps
between premium and basic, but I've read many posts elsewhere that
said they'd like to se an "in-between" plan that gives more than basic
but less than premium.

The problem is if you offer such a plan and it turns out it didn't
work out well, do you eliminate the middle tier plan or grandfather
then in and just no longer offer it.

I'm not suggesting an exact price nor how much storage or which
features to offer for how much. The above were just examples.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


Bruce Bowman
 

What good is 20 GB if it's limited to message attachments? Most of what I've seen discussed in this context is not insufficient storage, but loss of features, specifically files and photos and calendaring. 

If there's going to be an intermediate between Basic and Premium, I think it should remain at 1 GB of storage but reinstate the other features that were removed on August 24. It's already being supported in legacy Basic anyway...most of the additional coding would be limited to shoehorning it into the pricing structure.

Other options strike me as more long-term and unlikely to be implemented before December 15.

Regards,
Bruce


Christos G. Psarras
 

While I get the rationale behind the current feature+pricing tier, I also agree that a paid "Basic-Enhanced" plan would be beneficial, both short- and long-term; the reality is the jump from free to $220 is too much for certain types of groups, but a middle step may help to not only attract new groups, but also push existing GIO (new since 8/24) Free groups that want but can't afford the Premium, to move to this plan instead, and who knows, after a while some of them may end up upgrading to Premium after all.
 
And I agree with Bruce, reinstating the features into that new plan would be fast to implement and give new Free groups a more-than-a-month taste of Premium but with a 1 GB leash.
 
Cheers,
Christos
 
 


 

You might have free groups move to a mid-tier but cheaper group, which would be an increase in revenue, but you'd also have a few premium groups that don't need all the features downgrade to the mid-tier group, which would reduce revenue. If you can think of a setup that would encourage free groups to upgrade but not paid groups to downgrade, that'd be a winner.

JohnF


txercoupemuseum.org
 

Hi Mark,

There’s a number of people/groups already with Groups.io that continue to plead for something between $220/year and the free plan.  My groups can operate just fine within the limitations of the free plan indefinitely, BUT...if it were possible to subscribe JUST for more storage, whether 5 or 10GB, we would do it in heartbeat for, say, $3-4 mo.  

That would allow us greater latitude for posting/filing photos, documents, etc. that otherwise we have to arrange for outside of Groups.io and, to my knowledge Groups.io does not say how to get such storage to “ink” with our Group if such s possible.  

Present options of $0 or $200-220/year need SOMETHING in between.  An “upgrade” of STORAGE ONLY would be relatively simple to offer, and it would allow income from “free” groups.  

If such an option gets you more those kinds of groups, it’s STILL $36-$48 per year per group you’re not getting now from your “subscriber base”.  Couldn’t THAT be a “win-win” situation?

Best!

WRB

— 



On Oct 20, 2020, at 3:55 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing for. Are you saying that the free plan needs to have more storage, so that we'll get more groups (of the kind that will only use our free plan)? Economically, that may work for a business model based on advertising, where absolute numbers of groups/users are most important. But that's not us. 

Thanks,
Mark


 

I wasn’t going to weigh in here because I’m safely ensconced in my legacy premium group. But that’s selfish of me. So I’ll be honest. If I had to pay $20month I’m pretty sure I would downgrade, or at strongly consider it. My group is a volunteer service for people with sickcats. The extra features are something we don’t absolutely need and are just to make things somewhat easier and more enjoyable for me. I would not for a moment consider asking group members for donations. (To anyone who is going to ask, “Why not?” Save your breath, because I’m not going to answer. It is just something I feel strongly about for my group.)

So I think that there may br others like me, how many of them, who knows? who might be willing to go up to $15/month, but for whom $20 is pushing it because the extra features are not really a need. They’re a splurge.

Everybody here knows what a huge groups.io fan I am. This is about agreeing with the feelings of others who’ve posted that it feels like there’s a donut hole here. I have no idea how or if it might affect business. Just another data point. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Peter Cook
 

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 06:51 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
What good is 20 GB if it's limited to message attachments?
That's true... unless you have a legacy basic group, in which case a bump in storage could be crucial. 


Virginia Butterfield
 

I like that idea.   I have a bunch of groups and cannot afford to foot the bill for multiple groups.  I also hayte to ask for donations.


Ginny Butterfield
Cranberry Twp, Pa




On 10/20/2020 9:25 PM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
Hi Mark,

There’s a number of people/groups already with Groups.io that continue to plead for something between $220/year and the free plan.  My groups can operate just fine within the limitations of the free plan indefinitely, BUT...if it were possible to subscribe JUST for more storage, whether 5 or 10GB, we would do it in heartbeat for, say, $3-4 mo.  

That would allow us greater latitude for posting/filing photos, documents, etc. that otherwise we have to arrange for outside of Groups.io and, to my knowledge Groups.io does not say how to get such storage to “ink” with our Group if such s possible.  

Present options of $0 or $200-220/year need SOMETHING in between.  An “upgrade” of STORAGE ONLY would be relatively simple to offer, and it would allow income from “free” groups.  

If such an option gets you more those kinds of groups, it’s STILL $36-$48 per year per group you’re not getting now from your “subscriber base”.  Couldn’t THAT be a “win-win” situation?

Best!

WRB

— 



On Oct 20, 2020, at 3:55 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing for. Are you saying that the free plan needs to have more storage, so that we'll get more groups (of the kind that will only use our free plan)? Economically, that may work for a business model based on advertising, where absolute numbers of groups/users are most important. But that's not us. 

Thanks,
Mark



Peter Cook
 

As I think about it, a relatively inexpensive storage upgrade just for legacy basic groups might be a win-win - say, $10/month for 10GB?


Paul Ohio USA
 

Hi J,

I started with the premium because of being able to resolve the problems when we transferred to GIO. I, like you, have kept it because my time is worth more than $110/year. I can't count the number of things I've been able to "Fix" when a member accidentally leaves or needs an email change.

Paul, Ohio, USA


 

Paul,
I don’t disagree with any of that. Premium is great. It’s just that for me, it’s more of a luxury than a need. And I would have to think hard if I hadn’t been grandfathered in at this price.


On Oct 21, 2020, at 7:40 AM, Paul Ohio USA via groups.io <pwberndt@...> wrote:


Hi J,

I started with the premium because of being able to resolve the problems when we transferred to GIO. I, like you, have kept it because my time is worth more than $110/year. I can't count the number of things I've been able to "Fix" when a member accidentally leaves or needs an email change.

Paul, Ohio, USA

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


M K Ramadoss
 

Only Mark knows the financial side of GIO. GIO has to be a financial viable business. Let's allow Mark to decide what he feels the best. If what is offered by GIO is not satisfactory, the groups can move elsewhere. My 0.02

MKR

Virus-free. www.avg.com


On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 9:40 AM Paul Ohio USA via groups.io <pwberndt=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi J,

I started with the premium because of being able to resolve the problems when we transferred to GIO. I, like you, have kept it because my time is worth more than $110/year. I can't count the number of things I've been able to "Fix" when a member accidentally leaves or needs an email change.

Paul, Ohio, USA


Peter Cook
 

Regarding the original post:

As a customer I do not see Google groups as a serious competitor to premium GIO. Google is just a better version of the current Yahoo platform with a ton of memory. This isn't a price competition.

Pete


 

If course it’s Mark’s decision. Just giving some feedback, and it doesn’t affect me personally anyway.


On Oct 21, 2020, at 7:47 AM, M K Ramadoss <mkr777@...> wrote:


Only Mark knows the financial side of GIO. GIO has to be a financial viable business. Let's allow Mark to decide what he feels the best. If what is offered by GIO is not satisfactory, the groups can move elsewhere. My 0.02

MKR

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 9:40 AM Paul Ohio USA via groups.io <pwberndt=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi J,

I started with the premium because of being able to resolve the problems when we transferred to GIO. I, like you, have kept it because my time is worth more than $110/year. I can't count the number of things I've been able to "Fix" when a member accidentally leaves or needs an email change.

Paul, Ohio, USA


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

I also would stay away from google.


On Oct 21, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Peter Cook <peterscottcook@...> wrote:

Regarding the original post:

As a customer I do not see Google groups as a serious competitor to premium GIO. Google is just a better version of the current Yahoo platform with a ton of memory. This isn't a price competition.

Pete

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


John Wirtz SF
 

Regarding the subscription options:

 

I was very pleased to find GIO.  I joined “egroups” in the early 2000s which was free and that worked perfectly.  It then became Yahoo groups and over a period disintegrated. 

After  the way Yahoo sabotaged the groups, I am sceptical of anything that’s free.  So, I am prepared to pay for a good service and plumbed for the level I needed, i.e. premium as it has the facilities I need to manage my group effectively.

I have to agree that $20.00 a month is probably more than I’d wish to pay.

 

So rather than introduce an intermediate subscription do away with the free version and introduce free trials and reduce the cost of the premium with perhaps storage options, the more you want, the more you pay. 

I only intend my members to post messages and perhaps the occasional file so can keep storage to a minimum.  You can also manage your storage by deleting older files.

If you have a free platform, there will be those who never move away from it.

 

But there is on business principle that no one can get away from, to be profitable , you have to make a charge for services.

 

John Wirtz

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of J_Catlady
Sent: 21 October 2020 15:59
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Free to Premium Expanse

 

I also would stay away from google.



On Oct 21, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Peter Cook <peterscottcook@...> wrote:

Regarding the original post:

As a customer I do not see Google groups as a serious competitor to premium GIO. Google is just a better version of the current Yahoo platform with a ton of memory. This isn't a price competition.

Pete


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Peter Cook
 

To summarize my take, here's what I think.
 
  • Yes, there is a donut hole.
  • It's about affordability, not price competition.
  • If it were filled, I'd probably move two of my legacy basic groups into it.
  • If I were starting a new group and needed only basic features, I'd probably still go with GIO over Google (and live with the storage limits) - mainly because of the excellent moderator toolset and Mark's commitment to the product.
Pete


Ken Schweizer
 

Mark,

IMO, the $5 per month rate ($60 annually to reduce paperwork/workload) with files and photos and a little or no increase in storage would allow smaller Basic/Free groups to "donate" to help support your efforts easily. A majority of our group lurk, only occasionally replying to a post, but use the files posted in our file section for study. I know I would be happy to pay the $60 per year out on my pocket and not ask for donations.

Thanks for a GREAT platform!
Ken

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." God

-----Original Message-----
From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Donald Hellen
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 5:32 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Free to Premium Expanse #suggestion

Mark . . .

On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:55:12 -0700, "Mark Fletcher"
<markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing for. Are you saying that the
free plan needs to have more storage, so that we'll get more groups (of the
kind that will only use our free plan)? Economically, that may work for a
business model based on advertising, where absolute numbers of
groups/users are most important. But that's not us.

I'm not sure that most of his post explained it well, but I think he
was suggesting a plan between premium and basic. Maybe call it
enhanced (doesn't matter what to call it). Charge perhaps $5/mo for
5GB. Or instead you could make it a 10GB plan for the mid-grade one,
and charge $10. I don't think you need an infinite number of steps
between premium and basic, but I've read many posts elsewhere that
said they'd like to se an "in-between" plan that gives more than basic
but less than premium.

The problem is if you offer such a plan and it turns out it didn't
work out well, do you eliminate the middle tier plan or grandfather
then in and just no longer offer it.

I'm not suggesting an exact price nor how much storage or which
features to offer for how much. The above were just examples.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main