Topics

moderated File upload notifications


M Parker
 

Mark

I am pleased to see that the Notify Members checkbox when a file is uploaded is now checked by default. I would be unhappy if the feature was removed as I periodically move files around from one folder to another for archiving purposes and am not keen on there being lots of such notifications swamping the daily digests or individual mails for members receiving them. Setting a time period is one way to avoid this but is 5 minutes long enough?

Margaret P
Leeds, UK

I just pushed the following changes:
  • The Notify Members checkbox when uploading files is now checked by default, in preparation for removing it at some point.

Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions. One thing I'm curious about is whether I need to aggregate these notifications if they are generated within a certain limited time period. That is, if someone does 10 edits of the same wiki page in 5 minutes, should those just generate one notification (after 5 minutes). This would cause a delay on when the notification is sent out while we wait to see if any more changes happen. I'm curious to know if that will be a common occurrence.

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
______________________________________________________________________


Bruce Bowman
 

Mark -- I'm thinking that we need some way to distinguish between the system-generated notification and a message with the #file or #wiki added by a subscriber.

In the former case, I might want to mute it, or set it to No Email, or set the Topic Duration to one hour or some such, so it doesn't reside forever in the message archive. In the latter case I would want it to go through to the subscribers immediately and remain forever in the archive.

Currently, the only way available to manage this is to put the hashtag on moderation, which not only increases moderator workload (re: Patti's problem with wiki updates) but also delays the posting of desirable messages.

If we're going to use system hashtags for this, we're going to need some way to keep subscribers from using them (and optimally, keep them off the "top hashtags" list). Since bouncing incoming emails that might by chance contain a reserved hashtag seems rather harsh, I suggest they simply be stripped.

Regards,
Bruce


 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 07:20 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
we need some way to distinguish between the system-generated notification and a message with the #file or #wiki added by a subscriber.
I agree. The system hashtags could/should be set to "use by moderators only." Other attributes of them could/should also be set by default by the system, such as the ones that don't really apply (e.g. "locked," "moderated") and the ones that seem to conflict with alternatively-specified attributes (e.g., "no email"). In the case of "no email," it sounds on the surface like you're trying to specify the conditions and methods under which the notification is delivered. But that could/should be handled elsewhere in the separate "notifications" section I'm proposing.

Each notification would have various options and conditions for delivery, specified by the mods. They would each get a system hashtag, but those hashtags would be specially set up and constrained by the system as above, so as not to conflict with the options of the notification itself. Members could still mute the tags individually.

Those are the lines I'm starting to think along.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy Wedge
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 03:00 PM, M Parker wrote:
I am pleased to see that the Notify Members checkbox when a file is uploaded is now checked by default.
I would very much like to see it go back the way it was (unchecked by default). A positive action should be required by a user in order to generate a file upload message. If you forget to check the box when you want a message, there's always the option of reloading the file with the option checked. Forgetting to uncheck the box means the message gets sent. I know there's now a #file hashtag that could be moderated but that is an extra thing to monitor and I would want to have to moderate file uploads from other members and determine whether or not they actually wanted a message sent or they had just forgotten to uncheck the box.

Andy


 

Agree that it should be unchecked by default, don't know why it was changed.


On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:57 AM Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 03:00 PM, M Parker wrote:
I am pleased to see that the Notify Members checkbox when a file is uploaded is now checked by default.
I would very much like to see it go back the way it was (unchecked by default). A positive action should be required by a user in order to generate a file upload message. If you forget to check the box when you want a message, there's always the option of reloading the file with the option checked. Forgetting to uncheck the box means the message gets sent. I know there's now a #file hashtag that could be moderated but that is an extra thing to monitor and I would want to have to moderate file uploads from other members and determine whether or not they actually wanted a message sent or they had just forgotten to uncheck the box.

Andy


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Andy,

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:57 AM Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

I would very much like to see it go back the way it was (unchecked by default). A positive action should be required by a user in order to generate a file upload message. If you forget to check the box when you want a message, there's always the option of reloading the file with the option checked.

Why wouldn't you want your members to know about files being uploaded? Isn't the whole point of uploading files being that your members can then access them? I'm confused.

Thanks,
Mark 


 

Mark,

I noticed you wrote at the beginning of all this:
"The Notify Members checkbox when uploading files is now checked by default, in preparation for removing it at some point."
What does that mean? Is the plan to remove it at some point, and if so, why have it checked now?

In answer to your question to Andy about wanting group members to see files, yes, we do. But that doesn't imply we want all group members notified at the particular moment we upload every file. Sometimes I work iteratively; sometimes I post temporary files; etc.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 09:36 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Sometimes I work iteratively; sometimes I post temporary files; etc.
And actually there are simply some files - a lot of them, including every cat's labwork, which constitute the vast majority of files in our group - that I simply don't want to announce to the whole group have been uploaded. I will often just tell the individual member that their cat's labwork was uploaded. Not all files in every group are relevant to every group member or need to be announced when uploaded.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Margo Seegrist
 

Hi Mark,

I'm applying your comments about files to photos.  In my group, there are times I quietly upload photos and other times I upload them and then kick out an email to share the photo.  I quietly upload it generally when the person has already shared it with the group as an Attachment.  I quietly put it in the album for them so they don't need to see it again or get an email saying I put it in the album.

That's my reason for not needing a notification that I put the card in the album.

Sincerely,

Rli@...

In a message dated 6/18/2020 9:32:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, markf@corp.groups.io writes:

Andy,

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:57 AM Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

I would very much like to see it go back the way it was (unchecked by default). A positive action should be required by a user in order to generate a file upload message. If you forget to check the box when you want a message, there's always the option of reloading the file with the option checked.

Why wouldn't you want your members to know about files being uploaded? Isn't the whole point of uploading files being that your members can then access them? I'm confused.

Thanks,
Mark


Duane
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:32 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Why wouldn't you want your members to know about files being uploaded?
On most of my groups, one of the rules is that you will NOT notify the group when a file is uploaded.  After loading the file, a new topic with a link to the file and a description of what it's for should be sent, possibly leading to discussions.  Because not everyone names files well, nor provides a good description, this works much better for us.

On another group, for a club, everyone knows that I'll be uploading minutes as secretary, as well as banking information as treasurer, on a regular basis, so an announcement is just annoying clutter.

Regards,
Duane


Judy F.
 

I totally agree that it should be unchecked by default. 
Judy F.
SW Florida - USA


On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 10:57 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 03:00 PM, M Parker wrote:
I am pleased to see that the Notify Members checkbox when a file is uploaded is now checked by default.
I would very much like to see it go back the way it was (unchecked by default). A positive action should be required by a user in order to generate a file upload message. If you forget to check the box when you want a message, there's always the option of reloading the file with the option checked. Forgetting to uncheck the box means the message gets sent. I know there's now a #file hashtag that could be moderated but that is an extra thing to monitor and I would want to have to moderate file uploads from other members and determine whether or not they actually wanted a message sent or they had just forgotten to uncheck the box.

Andy


Carol Good
 

Why wouldn't you want your members to know about files being uploaded?
On most of my groups, one of the rules is that you will NOT notify the group
when a file is uploaded.  After loading the file, a new topic with a link to
the file and a description of what it's for should be sent, possibly leading
to discussions.  Because not everyone names files well, nor provides a good
description, this works much better for us.
For our group, yes, we want members to know when a file is uploaded, and the checkbox is preferable to nothing. But like Duane, we would actually love members to announce their file rather than just click the notification for the same reasons.

For the record, we don't use hashtags. We have deleted them for a reason. I uploaded a test file just now and the #file was created. I deleted that hashtag, deleted the test file and reuploaded it. No new hashtag was created, but in both cases the notification went out. I deleted and reloaded the file for a third time to check, and the same thing occurred - no new hashtag but another notification.

So we have to have hashtags we don't want just to be able to lock or moderate them? Doesn't feel like much of an improvement.

Carol


billsf9c
 

> Isn't the whole point of uploading files being that your members can then access them? I'm confused. Mark

Good point, but as daid, sorta No.
Point being, A nice option.
Historically, YahOops had a box we had to check, to Notify Members.
It's already our habit to USUALLY check it... but maybe not. Even as mere members. We just are already used to right-hand threads, et al.

Now, if you wanted to needlessly increase complexity, give owners a switch to set their global/list preference to create a setting during a random time frame which they must manually set and reset. I wouldn't... but you're the Captain.

BillSF9c


DeniseD
 

Please give us the option to advise our members of uploaded files.  Sometimes I don't want them to know about it at the time of uploading but I am preparing for a future event in the Group.
Please put it back to having the option.
Cheers DeniseD


On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 4:38 AM billsf9c via groups.io <OOWONBS=Netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:
> Isn't the whole point of uploading files being that your members can then access them? I'm confused. Mark

Good point, but as daid, sorta No.
Point being, A nice option.
Historically, YahOops had a box we had to check, to Notify Members.
It's already our habit to USUALLY check it... but maybe not. Even as mere members. We just are already used to right-hand threads, et al.

Now, if you wanted to needlessly increase complexity, give owners a switch to set their global/list preference to create a setting during a random time frame which they must manually set and reset. I wouldn't... but you're the Captain.

BillSF9c


 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:38 AM billsf9c via groups.io <OOWONBS=Netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:

Now, if you wanted to needlessly increase complexity, give owners a switch to set their global/list preference to create a setting during a random time frame which they must manually set and reset. I wouldn't... but you're the Captain.


Oooh, I like this. I think tying this to a randomly generated hashtag would also be good. Also, the randomly generated hashtag would often be composed of swear words in the group's native language. :-)

Ahem. Please continue to give me feedback on the new notifications.

Thanks,
Mark


 

Carol,

For the record, we don't use hashtags. We have deleted them for a
reason. ...

So we have to have hashtags we don't want just to be able to lock or
moderate them? Doesn't feel like much of an improvement.
I think "we don't use hashtags" is a different class of problem, one which has its own topics here in beta (owners requesting ways to turn them off altogether).

Would a group Permissions setting for the Hashtags page, one that allows that page to be restricted to moderators, solve the problem for you? Then your moderators would still have access to the hashtag controls while not promoting them to users.

Perhaps that same setting should remove the Top Hashtags list from the home page as well.

Shal


Andy Wedge
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 05:32 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
 
Why wouldn't you want your members to know about files being uploaded? Isn't the whole point of uploading files being that your members can then access them?
Hi Mark,

I have similar reasons to J's comments. I can upload files at various times that can be background or historical information and I don't want a notice going out for each one. I may send a separate note out to members with summary what's been done and a link to where they can find information.  At times we struggle to keep our members in Groups.io due to the volume of emails they receive. Despite best efforts to offer support and help them understand the array of options available to them to control email volumes, many of them it seems either don't have the time or inclination to learn. Their initial reaction from what they see as unnecessary and unwanted emails is either to unsubscribe from our main group or start marking messages as spam because they just want them to stop.

When we loaded our 1000+ club members into Groups.io in April last year there was an initial push back and numerous people unsubscribed so we only had 90% of our members on the system. Over time, through phone calls and online demonstrations we have persuaded many to give Groups.io another look so we are now at 96%. I feel that the recent changes can cause a sudden increase in system generated emails which is likely to cause some people to leave (again). The trouble is that when they leave, they leave with a negative impression of Groups.io which is a pity as so many here are trying make the user experience better.

It has been mentioned on this group several times before (by Shal IIRC)  that changes should fit into the category of 'least surprise'. I'm not sure that the notification changes do and some of the comments posted on GMF tend to back up that point.

I would just add that I do appreciate all the effort that goes into Groups.io and the generally rapid response to queries and bug fixes. I'm sure many here feel the same despite the recent barrage of emails.

Thanks,
Andy



DeniseD
 

The reason I don't want my members to see some files is because I may be preparing to send out something in a day and need to be prepared.  This particularly handy if I know I am going to be too busy on the day of the send.


On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 6:02 AM Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 05:32 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
 
Why wouldn't you want your members to know about files being uploaded? Isn't the whole point of uploading files being that your members can then access them?
Hi Mark,

I have similar reasons to J's comments. I can upload files at various times that can be background or historical information and I don't want a notice going out for each one. I may send a separate note out to members with summary what's been done and a link to where they can find information.  At times we struggle to keep our members in Groups.io due to the volume of emails they receive. Despite best efforts to offer support and help them understand the array of options available to them to control email volumes, many of them it seems either don't have the time or inclination to learn. Their initial reaction from what they see as unnecessary and unwanted emails is either to unsubscribe from our main group or start marking messages as spam because they just want them to stop.

When we loaded our 1000+ club members into Groups.io in April last year there was an initial push back and numerous people unsubscribed so we only had 90% of our members on the system. Over time, through phone calls and online demonstrations we have persuaded many to give Groups.io another look so we are now at 96%. I feel that the recent changes can cause a sudden increase in system generated emails which is likely to cause some people to leave (again). The trouble is that when they leave, they leave with a negative impression of Groups.io which is a pity as so many here are trying make the user experience better.

It has been mentioned on this group several times before (by Shal IIRC)  that changes should fit into the category of 'least surprise'. I'm not sure that the notification changes do and some of the comments posted on GMF tend to back up that point.

I would just add that I do appreciate all the effort that goes into Groups.io and the generally rapid response to queries and bug fixes. I'm sure many here feel the same despite the recent barrage of emails.

Thanks,
Andy



billsf9c
 

>> Now, if you wanted to needlessly increase complexity, give owners a switch to set their global/list preference to create a setting during a random time frame which they must manually set and reset. I wouldn't... but you're the Captain.

By "random time frame," I meant the owner would set or unset at will... Not of course by a time decided upon by a random number generator... 🤨🤣

As said, I doubt I'd create this added option - but I defer to others. For the meantime, less more. I'd stick with the YahOops convention we're used to.

As said, a mere notification ~'*tends* to be poor' because members create poor File Names.

*I* will often notify, but I would name well and it would be during the context of a discussion, usually with me pre-announcing that a File is coming. Most members on most lists do not operate at this level of clarity.

Random swear words? Hmmm.
🙃

BillSF9c