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moderated Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug


 

I'm calling this a bug because I consider it a bug (an unintended consequence) in the UI.

It is currently possible for members of a group to have email delivery set to Special Notices and advanced preferences set to Following Only. My group has had several new members recently set themselves up that way. I'm sure they think that this means they will get emails from topics they follow. But they won't. They will *only* get special notices they follow, which means that they will get zero messages (under normal circumstances). Special Notices aren't really the kinds of things people will follow. But more to the point, allowing someone to be both Special Notices and Following Only makes them think that they will get emails from (normal, everyday) topics they follow, and that's not the case.

I think the UI for advanced preferences has to be redesigned to disallow the combination of Special Notices and Following Only, and to allow Following Only only if the member is also subscribed via Individual Messages, Digest, or Daily Summary.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Thinking about this further, I think the problem is one of incorrect or mismatched categorization on the Subscription and Advanced Preferences pages. "Special Notices" is not really an "email delivery method." It's a filter, more akin to the Following Only filters. Logically, it makes more sense to put that filter on the Advanced Preference page along with the rest, instead of under "email delivery method." But I realize that practically, that forces people who don't want to receive group emails to go into their Advanced Preference page. Maybe that's ok, maybe it's not. It not, perhaps all the subscription and delivery options and filters should just be on the subscription page in one place.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


ro-esp
 

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 10:33 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

I think the UI for advanced preferences has to be redesigned to disallow the
combination of Special Notices and Following Only, and to allow Following Only
only if the member is also subscribed via Individual Messages, Digest, or
Daily Summary.
I think that's the wrong way to go about. If people WANT followed threads AND special notices, they should have that option.

groetjes/ĝis, Ronaldo


 

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 02:50 PM, ro-esp wrote:
I think that's the wrong way to go about. If people WANT followed threads AND special notices, they should have that option.
And they would have that. "Following Only" will set them to receive all messages, special notices or otherwise, whose threads they are following, as long as they have any of the other three "delivery methods" (using the term loosely) besides Special Notices. If they continie to be  allowed to be both Special Notices and Following Only, they will receive messages *only* from Special Notices whose threads they are following.

I've just announced this problem to my group and have gone in manually and changed everyone who had this ill-fated combination to Individual Messages, leaving their Following Only settings intact. But it should not be necessary for group owners to do that.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Peter Cook
 

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 05:50 PM, ro-esp wrote:
If people WANT followed threads AND special notices, they should have that option.
But her point is that that's not how it works - if someone is set to Special Notices Only, they get, well, special notices only. If they want more than special notices, they use individual, digest, or summary.

I agree that it makes sense for the Email Delivery setting to determine the available options for Message Selection and Replies under advanced settings. And since these settings all work in concert to determine message delivery, I'd put them together. (Which leaves Max Attachment Size sort of hanging out by itself.) 

I have to admit, I was pretty confused about the relationship between all of those settings and the actual delivery until someone on GMF set me straight.

Pete


 

Right. Snd there’s another potential problem with this bad combination, one I haven’t tested yet: theoretically, in a group with “disable no email” set, members could get around this using Special Notices plus Following Only and then simply not following any special notices. Logically, that should result in “no email.” I need to test this. 

I think Special Notices Only (and I would change the wording to that) should be a setting on the Advanced Preferencrs page along with the other filter (Following Only) and the two should be made incompatible with each other. Special Notices is not an “email delivery method” and besides not belonging with the real delivery options, it creates problems by being there and separated from the preferences page.


On Jan 21, 2021, at 3:04 PM, Peter Cook <peterscottcook@...> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 05:50 PM, ro-esp wrote:
If people WANT followed threads AND special notices, they should have that option.
But her point is that that's not how it works - if someone is set to Special Notices Only, they get, well, special notices only. If they want more than special notices, they use individual, digest, or summary.

I agree that it makes sense for the Email Delivery setting to determine the available options for Message Selection and Replies under advanced settings. And since these settings all work in concert to determine message delivery, I'd put them together. (Which leaves Max Attachment Size sort of hanging out by itself.) 

I have to admit, I was pretty confused about the relationship between all of those settings and the actual delivery until someone on GMF set me straight.

Pete

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Peter Cook
 

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 06:21 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
theoretically, in a group with “disable no email” set, members could get around this using Special Notices plus Following Only and then simply not following any special notices. Logically, that should result in “no email.”
I've tested this and special notices still get delivered. There is no way not to get special notices that I can find when No Email is disabled.


 

Thanks. So the whole combination is illogical in addition to misleading grouo members into thinking they’ll receive messages from topics they’re following. The combo serves no function and should be eliminated so members don’t fall into the trap.


On Jan 21, 2021, at 3:43 PM, Peter Cook <peterscottcook@...> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 06:21 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
theoretically, in a group with “disable no email” set, members could get around this using Special Notices plus Following Only and then simply not following any special notices. Logically, that should result in “no email.”
I've tested this and special notices still get delivered. There is no way not to get special notices that I can find when No Email is disabled.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Peter Cook
 

So, again: email delivery, message selection, and replies all determine which messages get to your inbox. So why not make them all part of the same block of settings?


 

Putting all together would be fine. Or separating them into delivery method and filter. I’m with you and would favor having both setting types in one place. 


On Jan 21, 2021, at 4:02 PM, Peter Cook <peterscottcook@...> wrote:

So, again: email delivery, message selection, and replies all determine which messages get to your inbox. So why not make them all part of the same block of settings?

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 04:02 PM, Peter Cook wrote:
email delivery, message selection, and replies all determine which messages get to your inbox.
I wouldn't throw "replies" into that, unless you're talking about the further filtering (under "following only") by "auto-follow replies." So I'll assume that's what you mean.

I would lump "message selection" and "replies" into either just "message selection" or "message filters." They're what determine which content gets into your email. The delivery method just determines the format in which they get there.

So there are two categories: filters and delivery method. They can be on the same page or not, I don't think it matters much.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Peter Cook
 

Or, something like

Delivery = how you get it = individual, digest, or summary.
 
Filter = what you get = none, special notices only, all, following only, following only + first message also, or following only + replies/

?

Pete


 

Exactly.


On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 4:20 PM Peter Cook <peterscottcook@...> wrote:
Or, something like

Delivery = how you get it = individual, digest, or summary.
 
Filter = what you get = none, special notices only, all, following only, following only + first message also, or following only + replies/

?

Pete


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Sarah k Alawami
 

I actually like that logic a lot better, then separate them into headings or something for better readability, or put a horizontal separator between the two to denote that these are indeed different sections.

--

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On 21 Jan 2021, at 16:20, Peter Cook wrote:

Or, something like

Delivery = how you get it = individual, digest, or summary.
 
Filter = what you get = none, special notices only, all, following only, following only + first message also, or following only + replies/

?

Pete


 

Right. There’s the “what” and the “how.” Might be the clearest with them on the same page, with a separator.


On Jan 21, 2021, at 5:54 PM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:



I actually like that logic a lot better, then separate them into headings or something for better readability, or put a horizontal separator between the two to denote that these are indeed different sections.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 21 Jan 2021, at 16:20, Peter Cook wrote:

Or, something like

Delivery = how you get it = individual, digest, or summary.
 
Filter = what you get = none, special notices only, all, following only, following only + first message also, or following only + replies/

?

Pete

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 02:20 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Right. There’s the “what” and the “how.” Might be the clearest with them on the same page, with a separator.
I agree that what and how could do with clarifying a bit. Also, don't forget that a member can also change their subscription settings using the Actions button on the Your Groups page. Regardless of the group setting, the No Email is always displayed here and if that option is disabled in a group and a member selects it they are set to Special Notices Only.



Having the ability to change the settings for multiple groups on the Your Groups page is very useful and I would not want to lose this. So, if any changes are made, it's more than just the Subscription page and Advanced Preferences layout that needs to be considered.

Regards
Andy


 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 01:19 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
Having the ability to change the settings for multiple groups on the Your Groups page is very useful and I would not want to lose this. So, if any changes are made, it's more than just the Subscription page and Advanced Preferences layout that needs to be considered.
I wasn't even aware you could do that. Yes, that needs to be dealt with as well. If the feature is left in place, you would have to decide what to do when (a) "special" is selected here when the member was already set to "following", and (b) the user first selects "special" here and later tries to select FO. It would be a matter of which takes precedence. I would suggest that whatever they do last should take preference, and that that should be reflected in the preferences page (or whatever it ends up being called, and I would suggest "email filter and delivery preferencess"). But the preference page should still not allow both simultaneously.

When someone selects "special" from the actions page, it would seem they actively want to cut down on the email they're already receiving, so that should take precedence over "following" if they were already set to that. Conversely, if they actively go in and select "following" from the preferences page, they would seem to be actively trying to make sure they get email from topics they're following, so "following" should take precedence and "special" should be wiped out.

The preference page would (1) still disallow both to be selected from the page itself and (2) if someone already set to "following" selects "special" from the action page, the preference page would have "following" wiped out.

Something along those lines.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


billsf9c
 

A button for Special Notices can easily exist in 2 places. It's not an either-or.

BillSF9c


 

Nobody’s saying it’s either-or. It does create complications in this case but there are reasonable solutions to those.


On Jan 22, 2021, at 1:23 PM, billsf9c via groups.io <OOWONBS@...> wrote:

A button for Special Notices can easily exist in 2 places. It's not an either-or.

BillSF9c

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Hi folks,

I personally think the Special Notice is fine where it is, because in the eyes of the user (not us) it is a delivery method, forget filters for a minute: I want to get the only the Special Notices, instead of individual or digest messages. (or nothing at all).  I'd personally leave the structure as it is now, it's easier this way as you'll see.

But first,  >>> If people WANT followed threads AND special notices, they should have that option.
 
I strongly advice against that; the reason a special notice exists is because it is a special message that should be delivered to all* members because it is (more than likely) something group-related that is very important and has to do with the group's well-being in some capacity. (or at least that's the main intention, one can use it for other stuff as well)

(*we're excluding No Email users currently, albeit IMO Special Notices should also be delivered to No Email users regardless as
currently we have no way of reaching everyone in the group with a single special notice mailing if Nomail is enabled; to me from an admin POV N it really should mean "No [regular group chat] Email", but that's another story)

If you were to allow filtering/following of special notices, you'd create extra unnecessary work for the admin, because after a special notice mailing, they would then have to go to the Member list, and manually email the Special Notice FollowingOnly users who did not get that special notice due to their FO setting, not fun work since there are no filtering/sorting on those options in the Member List... (the exact same extra work you have to do now to reach No Email users (if enabled)


>>>
theoretically, in a group with “disable no email” set, members could get around this using Special Notices plus Following Only and then simply not following any special notices. Logically, that should result in “no email.”
>>> I've tested this and special notices still get delivered. There is no way not to get special notices that I can find when No Email is disabled.
 
The special notice & nomail settings are not subject to the FollowingOnly filters, it says so in the light blue Advanced Prefs blurb: "Note: The preferences below do not apply if you select either Special Notices Only or No Email in the Email Delivery panel above."

The underlying issue as noted is that, if someone has Special/Nomail as their delivery, the screen still allows them to expand the panel and monkey with the AdvancedPrefs settings; so at the very least, I would either disable & grey-out the AdvPrefs options when Special/Nomail is selected, or possibly disable the AdvPrefs panel expansion (keeping it closed) and maybe change the caption to "Advanced Preferences (not applicable for selected delivery method)", make it out of sight out of mind.  Maybe also move the AdvPrefs panel right below Delivery and possibly also add some text after the Special/Nomail settings, maybe "(See Note Below)" or "(Non-customizable)" or something.

This would be quick and easy to do, very little code change/work, preserves user screen/feature/familiarity experience, and removes the (screen) visible sources of possible misunderstanding, hence immediate problem solved.  (& modify the docs if needed as well)


But I also see the bigger picture you folks are presenting, and I do agree that the Subscription page can use improvements, not just in this area.  So I created a sample screen and added there your how & what panel-combi suggestion (but I kept the existing structure as is to save on unnecessary work), and while at it, (possibly to Mark's chagrin! :), I added a few more suggestions of my own since he would be working there anyway; thankfully, with the exception of (optionally) remembering the panel expansion state, the rest are cosmetic or one liners.

See attached, explained further below:

- If not going to combine the Delivery & AdvPrefs panels, at least move the AdvPrefs panel below Delivery since they are related, and (optionally) have it remember its closed/expanded state.

- Better yet as suggested, combine the Delivery and AdvPrefs panels, leaving it as "Email Delivery" or change to "Email Delivery Preferences", and delineate it in 3 subsections. (delivery, filters, max attachment size)

- Possibly go down one pt in the light-blue blurb text so it can tightened and sized down, so it presents a smaller visual "break" between the delivery and filter subsections.  Maybe changing it to light-grey background could also help tone it down some, I don't know.

- Headline those subsections; no criticism intended for anyone but we could stand using more english-like captions in certain user screens, for example in the Delivery section add a headliner like "How would you like to receive group messages?" above the options; precise and to the point, and everyone understands exactly what it means and does, with the context of the provided options below it.

- Similarly, change the existing "Message Selection:" headliner to a user-friendly "Which group messages would you like to receive?" (or "Customize which group messages you [want to] receive:")
 
- Maybe change "All Messages" to "All Messages, or"; it gives that subsection more of a smooth reading flow based on how visually vertically-close the two options are currently; or alternatively leave text as is and add a bit more space between the ALL and FO options.

- Remove the "Replies:" caption, IMO it is not necessary if also "Auto Follow Replies" is changed to "Auto Follow Topics I Start or Reply To".  (of course one who likes to argue could say that there is some benefit to FollowOnly users of certain types of groups if this would be split into those two options but I'll shut up and not push my luck)

- Rearrange slightly the Max Attachment caption and dropbox, so the caption now becomes that subsection's headliner.

- Either hide (collapse) the entire Following subsection (and move MaxAttach & resize panel) if Special/Nomail is selected and re-expand if any of the other options is selected; or alternatively leave onscreen but set to All+clear rest+grey out, if Special/Nomail is selected, that would actually reflect  what the Note blurb says. (not applicable hence All Messages)

- Finally possibly also tighten-up the Signature panel, there's some white space that's not needed really, and also the textbox could be a bit less high, the whole Sig panel takes more real estate that it should IMO.  Or leave it as is but make it collapsible, and possibly have it remember its closed/expanded state, with the initial default of closed.

I think the end result makes for a cleaner and more streamlined flow & use screen, and also answers the side-effect concern, there's no effect whatsoever in the other multi-group list area Delivery selection menu.

Cheers,
Christos