Topics

locked Disable archives?


Christopher Hallsworth
 

Hi all,
Hope it is ok to ask on here, but what are your thoughts on disabling archives altogether? I'm surprised this isn't an option as both Yahoogroups and Googlegroups have this facility. In fact, Mailman does too.
Thanks for any comments on this.


Nightowl >8#
 

I would never want my archives tampered with, disabled or other. That's my personal preference. Otherwise, why bother having an on-site group interface? I prefer to do everything on the web site Interface, so I would never want anything to be missing there.

Brenda
Nightowl >8#


David P. Dillard
 

One of the great features of discussion groups in my humble opinion is collecting the wisdom and knowledge of group members in a searchable recorded body of posts so that one can benefit from the contributions
at later dates when seeking specific information. Why would one not want archives, private for members only or public. If public one also can use Google to find content in Groups IO discussion group archives. Why would one want to not have archives, except in cases of legal issues such as a medical list and HIPAA?





Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@...

On Mon, 12 Jan 2015, christopher hallsworth wrote:

Hi all,
Hope it is ok to ask on here, but what are your thoughts on disabling archives altogether? I'm surprised this isn't an option as both Yahoogroups and Googlegroups have this facility. In fact, Mailman does too.
Thanks for any comments on this.








 

Disabling the message archives would remove one of the great features of groups. Without a searchable archives and all the history contained therein, my groups would be no better than Facebook Groups. Our group has a message archive going back to 1998, with almost 84,000 posts. We are by nature a group focused on industrial history. This includes a great number of historical figures some members hold in perhaps exaggerated respect. In the archives are first person accounts from people now deceased. There are also many, many discussions of information turned up in more recent research, and commented on by those who were there at the time. They are so important that I manually copied over 81,600 messages before I was "assimilated by the borg". No, we're not ready to lose our archives.


This is also why having people delete their posts is of concern to me. We have had a number of people who 'took their marbles and went home' because they didn't like what they heard from those who had learned information that poked holes in their beliefs. What those people brought to the discussion was of much value, but today we are left with half a discussion. In my mind, what has been posted is recent historical fact. It reminds me of the joke line about 'what has been seen cannot be unseen'. We constantly struggle to deal with revisionist history, and even allowing posters to edit their messages encourages that. I'd much rather they posted follow-up messages. One sad fact we have to deal with is a previous owner who deleted some of the oldest messages that he thought were not of value. We now have gaping holes that are apparent, even though it was before the current message numbering.


So delete my message archives?? You might as well delete my group!


Dano


Christopher Hallsworth
 

Ar I see. Sounds interesting your history. Well it was just an idea anyway. I like how archives can be configured for now, public or private, but it was an idea stemmed from other group providers. You are clearly unique and that is great. Cheers and keep up the good work.

On 12 Jan 2015, at 12:15, D R Stinson <dano@...> wrote:

Disabling the message archives would remove one of the great features of groups. Without a searchable archives and all the history contained therein, my groups would be no better than Facebook Groups. Our group has a message archive going back to 1998, with almost 84,000 posts. We are by nature a group focused on industrial history. This includes a great number of historical figures some members hold in perhaps exaggerated respect. In the archives are first person accounts from people now deceased. There are also many, many discussions of information turned up in more recent research, and commented on by those who were there at the time. They are so important that I manually copied over 81,600 messages before I was "assimilated by the borg". No, we're not ready to lose our archives.


This is also why having people delete their posts is of concern to me. We have had a number of people who 'took their marbles and went home' because they didn't like what they heard from those who had learned information that poked holes in their beliefs. What those people brought to the discussion was of much value, but today we are left with half a discussion. In my mind, what has been posted is recent historical fact. It reminds me of the joke line about 'what has been seen cannot be unseen'. We constantly struggle to deal with revisionist history, and even allowing posters to edit their messages encourages that. I'd much rather they posted follow-up messages. One sad fact we have to deal with is a previous owner who deleted some of the oldest messages that he thought were not of value. We now have gaping holes that are apparent, even though it was before the current message numbering.


So delete my message archives?? You might as well delete my group!


Dano



Nightowl >8#
 

David,

I agree. That's why we worked so hard before they took away our "cheat to Classic" method to archive as many groups on Yahoo as possible. People helped one another, and archiving took hours and hours once they took away the sneaky method (sort of a back door into Classic we found that allowed us access to the messages and etc.).

The only reason I wish people would delete their groups & thus their archives when/if they leave Yahoo, would be to render that group impossible to use to claim activity by the Yahoo Execs. But by all means, save them first, somewhere anyway. And give members access to them when possible, by for example, a zip file that can be sent on request from a Non-Yahoo location.

Brenda


Nightowl >8#
 

I agree, Dan.

The exceptions to this are for example, when I had to delete a thread or so in MM when a bunch of people started fighting, because it would look bad to the media and public, Or when I had to delete posts that offered illegal things such as pirated software. But we can talk about this more,.

Brenda


Nightowl >8#
 

Dan,

I'm home, need to lie down and kick a migraine, but I'll be back on later.

And I'm also going to see about making either a group or subgroup on here for these sorts of status updates, so they aren't cluttering up the beta group.

And I plan to ask Mark what his policy is on Off-Topic posts, too.

But first, kick the headache...because I can't think when my head hurts.

Brenda



RS
 

Thinking about this, my experience in using Groups has been that very rarely would people create a group without archives.  That said, I personally was part of one that didn't save messages years ago.  Here's why.  It was a moderators group, and we occasionally spoke very frankly about certain members.  We were also friends with them, and would never want our thoughts as mods relating to the greater good of the group to be accidentally revealed due to a glitch in privacy settings or some other unforeseen issue, as Yahoo was known to have.  If they were ever invited as a mod, some things would cause un-necessary situations.  So, it can occur, but in 12+ years of group use, that's the only time I can think of I came across a reason for one.  Having the option available might be handy for some groups, but I suspect it might be pretty rare to want.
 
Right now, I am actually preferring the online viewing to my email inbox. That's an experience i haven't had in years.

 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 at 3:08 AM
From: "David P. Dillard" <jwne@...>
To: "christopher hallsworth" <challsworth2@icloud..com>
Cc: "beta@groups.io" <beta@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [beta] Disable archives?
One of the great features of discussion groups in my humble opinion is collecting the wisdom and knowledge of group members in a searchable recorded body of posts so that one can benefit from the contributions at later dates when seeking specific information. Why would one not want archives, private for members only or public. If public one also can use Google to find content in Groups IO discussion group archives. Why would one want to not have archives, except in cases of legal issues such as a medical list and HIPAA? Sincerely, David Dillard Temple University (215) 204 - 4584 jwne@... On Mon, 12 Jan 2015, christopher hallsworth wrote: > Hi all, > Hope it is ok to ask on here, but what are your thoughts on disabling archives altogether? I'm surprised this isn't an option as both Yahoogroups and Googlegroups have this facility. In fact, Mailman does too. > Thanks for any comments on this. > > > > > > > > >
 
 


 

On 1/12/2015 4:15 AM, D R Stinson wrote:

So delete my message archives?? You might as well delete my group!
I agree. To some point. A mod/owner should be able to delete an
inappropriate post if some "member" passes enough tests to get a
full-post priv - and then posts inappropriate posts. Or legitimate
members who get hacked/spoofed.

Removing an individual post at the request of the individual could
require a request to the -owner account with the reason for the
removal. Someone who has found that their account was hacked/spoofed
and are posting erroneous info - no brainer. Someone who has changed
their mind about their original post - I'd recommend they refer to
their original post and write a new one with their changed opinion,
and a referral to the OP - or even as a reply to the OP with the
newly learned info.

dg


 

Dano,

Disabling the message archives would remove one of the great features of
groups. ...
So delete my message archives?? You might as well delete my group!
I don't think that was the proposal. I think the proposal was that the Archives have an access control option that includes "Off".

I don't think I would use it in any of my groups, and clearly neither would you. But that doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there - for those groups where it would be appropriate. I've long maintained that the genius of Yahoo Groups lay partly in its adaptability - even to use cases beyond the imagination of its current users or developers.

That doesn't mean having options for everything. But a well-designed and fleshed out set of controls can be both easy to understand and provide unexpectedly useful combinations.

-- Shal


Steve Weinberg
 

Guys, I'm new here at io.

I think I got here because I was on a journey to try and download the message archives of various YGroups I've been running for years and years Ran into a dead end.

If you transfer an old Ygroup to a new io group, is there also some provision for transferring the message archives, as well?

Steve

===============================

On Jan 13, 2015, at 2:18 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

Dano,

Disabling the message archives would remove one of the great features of
groups. ...
So delete my message archives?? You might as well delete my group!
I don't think that was the proposal. I think the proposal was that the Archives have an access control option that includes "Off".

I don't think I would use it in any of my groups, and clearly neither would you. But that doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there - for those groups where it would be appropriate. I've long maintained that the genius of Yahoo Groups lay partly in its adaptability - even to use cases beyond the imagination of its current users or developers.

That doesn't mean having options for everything. But a well-designed and fleshed out set of controls can be both easy to understand and provide unexpectedly useful combinations.

-- Shal


 

Steve,

If you transfer an old Ygroup to a new io group, is there also some
provision for transferring the message archives, as well?
It has been mentioned, but nothing implemented or planned yet, that I know of.
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/message/171

-- Shal


Steve Weinberg
 

Shal, Thanks for the response. I'll keep looking.

I'd hope that with io groups, though, at least the "new" io group messages would be in archives that the group owner could download if desired.

Steve
------

Sent from Steve's iPhone

On Jan 13, 2015, at 1:34 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

Steve,

If you transfer an old Ygroup to a new io group, is there also some
provision for transferring the message archives, as well?
It has been mentioned, but nothing implemented or planned yet, that I know of.
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/message/171

-- Shal


 

Steve,

I'd hope that with io groups, though, at least the "new" io group
messages would be in archives that the group owner could download if
desired.
Yes, that's already a feature.

Each group's Settings page (available only to moderators) has a "Download Archives" tab which produces a plain-text file that is the group's archives in Mailbox (.mbx) format. So you get the original email headers, MIME parts, and attachments of all the posted messages. An email client like Thunderbird can import that file and show it to you as a folder full of email messages.

-- Shal


Steve Weinberg
 

Excellent

Steve
--------

Sent from Steve's iPhone

On Jan 13, 2015, at 2:36 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

Steve,

I'd hope that with io groups, though, at least the "new" io group
messages would be in archives that the group owner could download if
desired.
Yes, that's already a feature.

Each group's Settings page (available only to moderators) has a "Download Archives" tab which produces a plain-text file that is the group's archives in Mailbox (.mbx) format. So you get the original email headers, MIME parts, and attachments of all the posted messages. An email client like Thunderbird can import that file and show it to you as a folder full of email messages.

-- Shal


 

Dana -

I concur. Sometime someone will get spoofed and the miscreant will slip a message through. Also, occasionally in the heat of the moment someone will post something inappropriate. Moderators have always had the ability to remove posts for this very reason.

Dano


Nightowl >8#
 

Tyger wrote:>>Right now, I am actually preferring the online viewing to my email
inbox. That's an experience i haven't had in years.<<

HEAR HEAR~~~~ Me either! (at least a year & a half, anyway!)

Brenda


 


Dano,
I completely agree and you made excellent points. I do not believe people should be able to edit or delete posts, including their own. It makes it impossible to follow threads and have all the facts as to what someone said or said they were doing so that if you need to help them with advice, you can't find what the heck they said!
 
I have proposed making it optional for the owner to decide whether edits and delections are allowed for individual groups.
 
However, I would like the message board to be called the message board. Archive to me indicates something old and static and is where I would look for really old stuff.
 
Susan B
 
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 7:15 AM
Subject: [beta] Re: Disable archives?

Disabling the message archives would remove one of the great features of groups. Without a searchable archives and all the history contained therein, my groups would be no better than Facebook Groups. Our group has a message archive going back to 1998, with almost 84,000 posts. We are by nature a group focused on industrial history. This includes a great number of historical figures some members hold in perhaps exaggerated respect. In the archives are first person accounts from people now deceased. There are also many, many discussions of information turned up in more recent research, and commented on by those who were there at the time. They are so important that I manually copied over 81,600 messages before I was "assimilated by the borg". No, we're not ready to lose our archives.


This is also why having people delete their posts is of concern to me. We have had a number of people who 'took their marbles and went home' because they didn't like what they heard from those who had learned information that poked holes in their beliefs. What those people brought to the discussion was of much value, but today we are left with half a discussion. In my mind, what has been posted is recent historical fact. It reminds me of the joke line about 'what has been seen cannot be unseen'. We constantly struggle to deal with revisionist history, and even allowing posters to edit their messages encourages that. I'd much rather they posted follow-up messages. One sad fact we have to deal with is a previous owner who deleted some of the oldest messages that he thought were not of value. We now have gaping holes that are apparent, even though it was before the current message numbering.


So delete my message archives?? You might as well delete my group!


Dano


 

Steve, Mark, Shal -
We would very definitely want that. Our messages from the message board and our Files would both need to be transferred.
 
Susan B

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] Disable archives?

Steve,

> If you transfer an old Ygroup to a new io group, is there also some
> provision for transferring the message archives, as well?

It has been mentioned, but nothing implemented or planned yet, that I
know of.
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/message/171

-- Shal