moderated Default "Owner Email" setting #suggestion


Andy I
 

The default "Owner Email" setting for Moderators apparently is "Members Only", meaning that the Moderator will not receive any emails sent to them (to the +owner address) from non-members.

I recommend changing the default to "All Emails" = Receive every message that is sent to the groupname+owner email address.

IMO, that should be where all group Owners/Moderators start, and they can change it to "Members Only" later to restrict it if they wish.  Also I think it's important that at least one Moderator in a group should receive emails from anyone including those having trouble joining a group, or wanting to contact but not join, etc., and I think this encourages it because people are more likely to use defaults.

BTW, this setting is at the bottom of the Subscription -> Membership page, and only for Moderators/Owners.

(I feel like this might have been discussed here already, but my brain cells forget, and I couldn't find it from a search.  I apologize if this is "old".)

Andy


Pete Cook
 

I agree with this. In each of the groups where I'm an owner, at least one owner (or moderator) is set to receive all emails. Sometimes non-members reach out to the group; in many cases it's a group member having problems who is sending from a non-subscribed email address. So the All Emails default makes a lot of sense to me.

Pete


Andy I
 

I am trying to think back over eons (well, weeks) of past messages.  If I remember correctly, the choice to restrict it to only messages sent by group members, was to prevent someone from spamming Moderators by flooding them with unwanted messages to the +owner address.

I have personally not seen that happen.  But it seems to me that it would be a good choice IF and WHEN that happens to them, and not otherwise.

I can envision many circumstances where someone would want to contact a group's owners without actually joining a group, or before their group membership has been accepted.  Blocking those messages doesn't seem right.

Andy


Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 05:46 PM, Andy I wrote:
The default "Owner Email" setting for Moderators apparently is "Members Only", meaning that the Moderator will not receive any emails sent to them (to the +owner address) from non-members.
I agree that someone really should be set to all. 

At the same time, most of the "Moderators" in my group really don't do any moderation. With no other granularity available, it's the only way I can grant permission to use some group features (wiki edits, file uploads, etc.) while restricting others. In that sense, I would like to continue to make some people a "Moderator" (an unfortunate term in this context) without having to remember to turn this off.

I'd prefer that the default for Owners be "all emails" and the default for Moderators be "none." But my feelings won't be hurt if we go in some other direction.

Regards,
Bruce


Duane
 

On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 04:46 PM, Andy I wrote:
I recommend changing the default to "All Emails"
I don't see a need to change the default that's been that way a long time (and I'm used to it).  When the owner makes a new moderator, they should change it if they want the mod to get the messages.  And any mod can change their own settings, so nothing the owner does really means anything.

Duane


Andy I
 

Duane, maybe you missed what my intention is.  Of course Owners and moderators can change that setting any time.  But I think the initial (default) setting ought to be "All Emails", as the starting point for moderators in all newly created groups.  The number of settings and the way to get to all of them is somewhat daunting for a new moderator (and it still is for me).  Consequently, many settings are left at their defaults.  In this case, I believe the default ought to be "All Mail", so that new moderators do not block emails sent to them without knowing it.  Moderators of new groups are unlikely to be spammed, so the need to restrict their owner-emails to members only is highly unnecessary.

The fact that the Owner can change it is not relevant.  Of course they can do that.  The fact that the Moderator her/himself can change it is not relevant.  What matters here is what it is set to when nobody changes it.

I don't know what the numbers are.  But if 75% (my guess) of moderators don't know to change that setting, or never thought about why, then 75% of moderators may not even realize that they are blocking emails sent to them.

I like to encourage doing what's right, and in my opinion, the right thing to do is to not block emails, unless it becomes necessary.

On all our groups' webpages, there is a link to contact the group's owner.  That implies you can contact any group's owner that way.  If the default setting nullifies that link, then why have that link on the webpage at all?

Andy


Andy Wedge
 

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 01:03 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
At the same time, most of the "Moderators" in my group really don't do any moderation. With no other granularity available, it's the only way I can grant permission to use some group features (wiki edits, file uploads, etc.) while restricting others. In that sense, I would like to continue to make some people a "Moderator" (an unfortunate term in this context) without having to remember to turn this off.
I am in the same position regarding making some people Moderators in order to give access to certain features (mostly calendar access in my case). 

I'd prefer that the default for Owners be "all emails" and the default for Moderators be "none." But my feelings won't be hurt if we go in some other direction.
I do remember to turn the owner email setting off for any new Mod but don't think they should have the ability to turn it back on again.  I think the settings to receive owner emails when making someone a Mod would be better in the Moderator permissions list for the member.

Regards
Andy




Duane
 

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 08:10 AM, Andy I wrote:
Duane, maybe you missed what my intention is.
I don't think so.  From my perspective, no mods need to get all messages.  I consider that an owner function, but if you want to allow mods to do it, then just turn it on.  I was made moderator on a couple of groups and would have been terribly upset if I'd started getting all the junk that gets sent to an owner.  I have limited bandwidth and would rather use it for things that interest me.

As Bruce said earlier, it may not be a bad idea for it to default to on for owners, but not mods.  (I think part of the confusion is that it looks like you're referring to owners as mods since you mentioned new groups.  They may have very different functions.)

Yes, we have scads of functions and settings, but knowing what they are and what they do is part of the owner's job.  Once Mark finishes making it the ultimate groups site, there will be even more to learn, but, I think, well worth it.

Duane


 

Hi All,

I've changed the default for new group/subgroup owners to All Emails.

Thanks,
Mark


Andy Wedge
 

On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 06:25 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I've changed the default for new group/subgroup owners to All Emails.
I've just upgraded my 'member' account in my test subgroup to Owner and the selection is still to receive emails from members only.  The same happened when I upgraded it to Moderator.

Regards
Andy


 

On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 10:34 AM Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 06:25 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I've changed the default for new group/subgroup owners to All Emails.
I've just upgraded my 'member' account in my test subgroup to Owner and the selection is still to receive emails from members only.  The same happened when I upgraded it to Moderator.

Sorry, I worded things poorly. I changed it so that when you create a new group/subgroup, that owner subscription is set to all emails. Should I also change it when you update an existing member to owner?

Thanks,
Mark 


Bruce Bowman
 

On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 01:36 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Should I also change it when you update an existing member to owner?
My initial reaction was "no"...but upon further reflection, that morphed into a definite "probably."    :-)

Why? One of the main reasons someone is likely to be promoted to Owner is so the existing Owner can subsequently demote himself.

I would not recommend changing the setting of all current Owners, though.

My $0.02, for what it's worth (i.e.: not much).

Bruce


Andy Wedge
 

On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 06:36 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Should I also change it when you update an existing member to owner?
Not for me at least. I've already mentioned that I think this would be better placed under Moderator Permissions where an owner can decide if a mod can receive owner emails and the Mod cannot choose to change the setting.

Regards
Andy


Bruce Bowman
 

On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 01:48 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I've already mentioned that I think this would be better placed under Moderator Permissions where an owner can decide if a mod can receive owner emails and the Mod cannot choose to change the setting.
There should still be a default, no matter where it's placed.

Regards,
Bruce


Andy Wedge
 

On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 08:20 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
There should still be a default, no matter where it's placed.
Agreed and whatever it defaults to, I will check to see that it's set to no emails for my group.  For me, it seems strange that we set all the other moderator permissions in one place but this setting is outside that and is also configurable by a mod regardless of what an owner wants.

Regards
Andy


Chris Jones
 

On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 08:31 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I will check to see that it's set to no emails for my group
Unless I have missed something that might cause a problems for some groups, specifically Restricted ones.

Although an application for membership generates a Notification, a Restricted Group requires the follow - up of a response to the Pending Subscription Message, and that is by definition a +owner message. 

As a result a Moderator might be mandated to approve new memberships, but if they cannot see +owner messages then they cannot know to approve the member, or, if necessary, make a follow - up enquiry. 

I have had a look at the Owners Manual to see if there was any help about this but I was unable to find any. 

Mark; can I ask you to clarify if answers to a Pending Subscription Message are handled the same way as any other +owner message or if they are somehow "different" and able to get passed to a Moderator who cannot see +owner messages. 

Chris


 

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 04:53 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
a Restricted Group requires the follow - up of a response to the Pending Subscription Message
Not necessarily. Some restricted groups don't require a response to anything. They just want to manually approve each membership.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 01:02 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Some restricted groups don't require a response to anything
Fair comment, but it does not negate the validity of the point I have raised, merely its possible scope. 

Chris 


Duane
 

A pending member is considered to be a member for emails sent to the owner address, so replies they make would go to owner/mods that have chosen Members Only for Owner Email.  For those that haven't applied for membership in a restricted group, say wanna be members, only owner/mods that have chosen All Emails would get their messages.

I can foresee a need for an owner or mod to be able to change their own setting, re: https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/32798.  If that person was on vacation for example, they probably wouldn't want to receive the emails, so might choose None until they return home.

I know this is getting off on a bit of a tangent, but what if there were a mechanism that required at least one owner/mod to be set to All Emails?  Even that might be more than some owners would want though.

Duane


Andy I
 

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 08:39 AM, Duane wrote:
A pending member is considered to be a member for emails sent to the owner address, so replies they make would go to owner/mods that have chosen Members Only for Owner Email.  ...

I don't know whether the following applies, but I wonder.  I can't send emails to GIO groups from my own address, because I signed up with a "plus-address".  This means I can't reply via email to Groups.io groups.  Groups.io pares my address down to the raw address which isn't the one that is subscribed.  So, I'm assuming this also means that if I replied to the +owner address, Groups.io would strip off the "plus address" part, and it would not come from a (pending) member's address.  In other words, some replies from members could appear to come from addresses that are not members, and would be blocked by anyone who has chosen Members Only for the Owner Email setting.

I use my "plus address" as one example, but I suppose there may be other cases like that where a respondent's email seems to come from a non-member address even though they are a (pending or other) member.

Andy


Andy Wedge
 

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 12:53 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
Unless I have missed something that might cause a problems for some groups, specifically Restricted ones.
My group is restricted. I and my co-owner are set to receive all the +owner emails. We are owners of each subgroup and have the same settings there. We have mods for subgroups (so we can give access to features like the calendar to a restricted set of members) and we have set their preferences to receive no +owner emails as they are not the owners .  All members in the main group are direct added based upon an external club membership list so we don't use invites or a pending subscription request notice.  We get an occasional subscription request which is approved if it's a current club member who left Groups.io previously for some reason and I get a email moderator notification about that.

Regards
Andy


 

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:33 AM Andy I <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:

I don't know whether the following applies, but I wonder.  I can't send emails to GIO groups from my own address, because I signed up with a "plus-address".  This means I can't reply via email to Groups.io groups.  Groups.io pares my address down to the raw address which isn't the one that is subscribed.

We do? You can't? If true, that's a bug. I don't think we do any sort of processing like that to sender email addresses, and I did just test it and it worked for me. 

If this happens to you, please send me the details off-list and I'll look through the logs.

Thanks,
Mark 


Andy I
 

I've found that Groups.io's handling of Gmail plus-addresses is inconsistent.

Some things work (groups.io preserves the "From:" address).

Others do not (groups.io strips the + part, or uses the actual sender's address instead of the "From:" address).

I'm no expert on that stuff.

Andy