moderated Controlling rw permissions (files section)


 

Agree with Dano. No matter what Mark decides to do, this is not the place to submit that xyz feature is “too much work” for Mark, or “anyway, there’s a workaround,” or “moderators should do their jobs and this is one of them.” Mark himself has said to lay off this kind of talk in beta. Let people make their suggestions and let Mark decide. He is completely capable of deciding what’s too much work for him and what isn’t. 😊

On Jun 22, 2019, at 3:29 PM, D R Stinson <dano@mt.net> wrote:

They're not trying to be another member - in fact this simply needs to see what a basic unspecified member sees.
Rather than asking Mark to find a solution in software, I submit that your description brings us back to the idea of an owner / moderator having an "ordinary" subscription so that the different views can be determined "in house".
There are whole lot of niceties on groups.io that were evolved in from the very beginning of beta based on suggestions such as this. Mark has always seemed to want groups.io to be the best possible system for running groups, and that includes ease of operation for moderators. So users have offered a lot of their own ideas.

Remember that Mark is the one who will read all the input and make his own judgement on what he considers useful or frivolous. And he may see a possibility that makes things simpler in a different way. We don't make any decisions here on beta. Workarounds are worked out in GMF, but suggestions are offered here. That's what this string has been about - passing along an idea. Yes, there is a workaround for this, just like there's a workaround for a great many functions that have been built into groups.io, but this just might make some owners' and moderators' jobs here just a little easier. Not everyone who runs a group is a programmer. Some of us know enough to get through things, but we can see where a simple switch would save a lot of time and perhaps the loss of a thought as we work through the log in/log out process and then reverse it to come back to where we were.

Dano


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Jonathan,

Makes me wonder now whether there should be a mod-do, or a way of
operating as a normal user and only stepping up to mod privileges when
needed.
Interesting.

I think I may like this better than the usual "view as member" approach. For one thing it implicitly resolves the "which member" question: you.

It reverses the default view, and in that way reinforces a member-centric view of the group, something that moderators sometimes struggle with understanding.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that the "Owner" (or "Moderator") badge on the Home button become the user interface for this. Someone with Owner (or Moderator) role would see that say "Member" initially. But it would have a drop-down or other means to select their elevated role. This same means can be used to switch back.

Shal


 

Shal -
I would like to defend the other direction, switching to the member view briefly without leaving the page. Allow me to explain.

Everyone has a different style of learning and functioning. Some people are readers and need to see the words in print, while others are visual and need to see the actions take place with the flip of a switch. Others are easily distractible by things along the way in changing pages. If I have to jump out to another page to flip that switch and then come back, I am much less likely to see differences that I should notice. And then going through the log-off/log-on routine again further breaks my train of thought.

I would much rather see the owner/moderator view as default, as that often prompts me to actions I need to deal with. Having to go to another page to change the view and then come back is no better than having to do the log-off/log-on routine and then turn around and do it again just to get back to what I was working on. It would seem that having the owner/moderator icon change on the members page seem like an quick way to really confuse members.

I think the idea of who owns the files is a red herring to this discussion. I want to know what an ordinary user might see. I already know members can edit and remove their own files. I already have too many cases where the member was lost in the transfer or left the group, and as group owner I am left as the default owner. But what is an ordinary member (or "mere mortal" as jslcanuck referred to it) seeing?

Another problem in this discussion is that someone dragged in some jargon and not everyone knows exactly what it means. I refer to: "logging in and working as root", "su'ing", "we should sudo instead", and "mod-do". If you want to drive away the more average user's input, using technical terms will certainly help that happen. Fortunately I believe, after working with groups for all these years, Mark understands the value of making things more useful for the common user.

This is my viewpoint, and I offer it for Mark's consideration.

Dano

----- Original Message -----
From: Shal Farley

Jonathan,

Makes me wonder now whether there should be a mod-do, or a way of
operating as a normal user and only stepping up to mod privileges when
needed.
Interesting.

I think I may like this better than the usual "view as member" approach.
For one thing it implicitly resolves the "which member" question: you.

It reverses the default view, and in that way reinforces a
member-centric view of the group, something that moderators sometimes
struggle with understanding.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that the "Owner" (or "Moderator") badge
on the Home button become the user interface for this. Someone with
Owner (or Moderator) role would see that say "Member" initially. But it
would have a drop-down or other means to select their elevated role.
This same means can be used to switch back.

Shal


 

Agree with Dano. I would hate, hate, hate to have to switch to “mod view” when I want to act as a moderator in my own group, which is mainly what I do. It’s already bad enough that I have to click on “activity” to see the mod functions.

I feel like this idea has gotten out of control.

On Jun 22, 2019, at 10:23 PM, D R Stinson <dano@mt.net> wrote:

Shal -
I would like to defend the other direction, switching to the member view briefly without leaving the page. Allow me to explain.

Everyone has a different style of learning and functioning. Some people are readers and need to see the words in print, while others are visual and need to see the actions take place with the flip of a switch. Others are easily distractible by things along the way in changing pages. If I have to jump out to another page to flip that switch and then come back, I am much less likely to see differences that I should notice. And then going through the log-off/log-on routine again further breaks my train of thought.

I would much rather see the owner/moderator view as default, as that often prompts me to actions I need to deal with. Having to go to another page to change the view and then come back is no better than having to do the log-off/log-on routine and then turn around and do it again just to get back to what I was working on. It would seem that having the owner/moderator icon change on the members page seem like an quick way to really confuse members.

I think the idea of who owns the files is a red herring to this discussion. I want to know what an ordinary user might see. I already know members can edit and remove their own files. I already have too many cases where the member was lost in the transfer or left the group, and as group owner I am left as the default owner. But what is an ordinary member (or "mere mortal" as jslcanuck referred to it) seeing?

Another problem in this discussion is that someone dragged in some jargon and not everyone knows exactly what it means. I refer to: "logging in and working as root", "su'ing", "we should sudo instead", and "mod-do". If you want to drive away the more average user's input, using technical terms will certainly help that happen. Fortunately I believe, after working with groups for all these years, Mark understands the value of making things more useful for the common user.

This is my viewpoint, and I offer it for Mark's consideration.

Dano

----- Original Message -----
From: Shal Farley

Jonathan,

Makes me wonder now whether there should be a mod-do, or a way of
operating as a normal user and only stepping up to mod privileges when
needed.
Interesting.

I think I may like this better than the usual "view as member" approach.
For one thing it implicitly resolves the "which member" question: you.

It reverses the default view, and in that way reinforces a
member-centric view of the group, something that moderators sometimes
struggle with understanding.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that the "Owner" (or "Moderator") badge
on the Home button become the user interface for this. Someone with
Owner (or Moderator) role would see that say "Member" initially. But it
would have a drop-down or other means to select their elevated role.
This same means can be used to switch back.

Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

J noted, "I feel like this idea has gotten out of control."

I understand your sentiment, J. But I also have faith that Mark will winnow the grain from the chaff and, if he finds merit in the idea, will use our thoughts to better groups.io. He may well find a much more elegant solution than any of us can imagine.

Dano


 

Dano,

If I have to jump out to another page to flip that switch and then
come back, I am much less likely to see differences that I should
notice.
I agree.

Which is exactly why I suggested a location that is visible on every page of a group.

Another problem in this discussion is that someone dragged in some
jargon and not everyone knows exactly what it means.
I think your objection is spurious; Jonathan adequately explained what the terminology implied. Hopefully my post would help there too. I didn't rely on the reader knowing what sudo does, I explained my proposal without jargon.

Shal


Chris Jones
 

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 05:17 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
I'd even go so far as to suggest that the "Owner" (or "Moderator") badge on the Home button become the user interface for this. Someone with Owner (or Moderator) role would see that say "Member" initially.
(My underlining)

Although the idea of using that tab as a toggle of some sort clearly has merit, as described above it rather violates the Principle of Least Astonishment.

Membership of beta is a minority interest amongst owners and moderators - just look at the numbers - and not all may bother to read "Updates" so IMHO the default view should be their normal operating status.

Chris


Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

I have a test group and full control there to try things so I was able to "mostly" replicate what Shal has suggested.

By the way, I am not unbiased on this subject. I believe that Shal has the correct answer as to what the "elegant solution" is.

This is what I was able to try.

Owner: Open primary browser window logged onto a group that I am Owner of.
Moderator: Open a second browser and logon with a Moderator account to that group.
Owner: Change the Moderator account to "Member" and Save
Moderator: Refresh browser. Note that the Home Mod badge has disappeared. We are now viewing as a normal member.
Owner: Change the Moderator account to "Moderator". This is where some magic has to be added by Mark. The Moderator permissions need to be remembered and returned when switching back. For testing, do this manually and then Save.
Moderator: Refresh browser. All previous Moderator functions are back to working as usual.

This seems to do the job. It also proves that the Moderator does not need to log off and back on for this functionality to work.

What I could not do, of course, was to add Shal's drop-down addition to the Home button. To address Chris's point about possible confusion, I suggest that the Home button be made a bit smarter in that when it goes into downgraded Moderator mode, the badge should change to a grayed out Mod badge instead of removing the badge altogether. The drop-down will also need the existing "Home" link as one option, so a toggle wouldn't be sufficient. Hopefully, Mark can force a browser refresh here when a change is made/

I am concerned that there may be issues making this work for an Owner account, but maybe I am just overly pessimistic.

--
Gerald


Michael Pavan
 

I'd even go so far as to suggest that the "Owner" (or "Moderator") badge on the Home button become the user interface for this. Someone with Owner (or Moderator) role would see that say "Member" initially. But it would have a drop-down or other means to select their elevated role. This same means can be used to switch back.
I would suggest that in the left hand column where it says "Home" and the "Owner" badge, that there also be badges for "Member", and "Moderator" (if also a Mod). The active badge would be in color, the other(s) would be greyed out.

Toggling 'Role' (Owner, Member, or Moderator) would be accomplished from clicking on the desired role badge - no 'page jumping should occur, only the page view should change to that of the chosen role.

I think I like having the "Member" view as the default, but a control in Settings should also be added to set "Role View default".




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