moderated Banned member is still a member?? #bug


Andy
 

Yesterday I banned someone from our group.  Today, about 30 hours later, that same member apparently unsubscribed himself from the group, via the web.

How is that possible?  Doesn't banning them make them not a group member anymore?

It was the same exact address.  After banning them, I saw that they were no longer listed in the Members list.  And yet, they could somehow get access to their group Subscription and unsubscribe themself.  How?

I'm not sure what is going on.  Part of my concern is that I don't want a banned member to have access to any of the group's resources, yet it appears that they might have had access to the group, and were only LISTED as not being a member anymore.

Confused,
Andy


 

I am very curious about/interested in this. There is some weirdnedss with banned members still having a membership record (not sure those are the correct terms). I've seen, for example, banned members' profiles give the "date joined" as the date they were banned. (Their profiles are viewable in their display names, as I mentioned in a previous thread, by mods after doing a search on the message list in which any of the banned members' messages are returned.)

I wanted to try to see if I could reproduce this, out of curiosity, but don't have enough info. For example, someone who applies for membership in a restricted group can, before having their application acted on, "unsubscribe" from the group even though they are not even in it yet. So the bug you're experiencing might be due to some unusual chronology of events. Could you give us the most recent sequence of events in their activity log?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

One other thing, which I didn't mention at first because the bug has been fixed: awhile back, banning someone did not actually remove them from the group. You had to remove them manually by hand afterwards. That's been fixed, but if this member was banned before the bug was fixed, then he wasn't removed and could later unsub.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

re: "One other thing, which I didn't mention at first because the bug has been fixed: awhile back, banning someone did not actually remove them from the group. You had to remove them manually by hand afterwards. That's been fixed, but if this member was banned before the bug was fixed, then he wasn't removed and could later unsub."

How long ago was that fixed?

The sequence I'm talking about, happened yesterday and today.

Andy


 

If it was yesterday and today, it doesn't apply. This was at least a year ago, maybe more. I knew it was a longshot but thought I'd mention it just in case. I would still like to see the chronology of this member's activity. Just very curious.

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 8:40 PM Andy <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:
re: "One other thing, which I didn't mention at first because the bug has been fixed: awhile back, banning someone did not actually remove them from the group. You had to remove them manually by hand afterwards. That's been fixed, but if this member was banned before the bug was fixed, then he wasn't removed and could later unsub."

How long ago was that fixed?

The sequence I'm talking about, happened yesterday and today.

Andy


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Does it show them unsubbing via email or via the web? If they're banned, they should not be able to access the site at all. I'm guessing this was via email? I'm going to try to reproduce that. I'm wondering whether they were banned, then tried to apply via email (which would not inform them they were banned), then sent an unsub email. Or, possibly just sent an unsub email after being banned and it mistakenly went into the log as such instead of just being discarded.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

Like I said in the base note, they unsubbed via the web.  That is what bothers me.  I think they should not have been able to do that.

Andy


 

Yes, sorry I missed that, and the fact that they were banned only yesterday. If they’re truly banned they should not be able to even see the home page. I’m assuming their address appears in the banned members and past members lists (the latter if you have a premium group), and not in the members list? Just checking. If not, then you might try banning the address again. 


On Aug 13, 2021, at 9:03 PM, Andy <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:

Like I said in the base note, they unsubbed via the web.  That is what bothers me.  I think they should not have been able to do that.

Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Also, do you have any subgroups?
Is the most activity for this member just (1) you banned them, and (2) they unsubbed? Is there anything in between?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 05:33 AM, Andy wrote:

Yesterday I banned someone from our group.  Today, about 30 hours later,
that same member apparently unsubscribed himself from the group, via the web.

How is that possible?  Doesn't banning them make them not a group member
anymore?

It was the same exact address.  After banning them, I saw that they were no
longer listed in the Members list.
In the Members list click the funnel icon, check Banned, click Apply to get the banned list. Is that email address in the Banned list?

Also, in Activity search for that email address. Do you see that you banned that address? What do you see after that?


Andy
 

re: "Could you give us the most recent sequence of events in their activity log?"

Here is the sequence of events:

Aug. 12, approx. 2 AM -- He subscribed himself, via email.
Aug. 12, shortly after (I think within 1 hour) -- I discovered the new member.
Aug. 12, minutes later -- I changed his permissions (*).
Aug. 12, seconds later -- I banned him from the group.
Aug. 12, seconds later -- I verified that he was no longer listed at the top of the Members list.
Aug. 13, 4:45 PM -- He unsubscribed himself, via web.

(*)  I routinely lock up their permissions right before banning them.  It should not matter, because when they're gone, they're gone (right??), but I do it anyway just in case.

So I think about 38 hours passed between being banned, and him unsubscribing himself.

In case you wonder why I banned him so quickly, I have reasons.

Andy


 

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 09:27 PM, Andy wrote:
- I verified that he was no longer listed at the top of the Members list.
Did you also verify that he was in the banned members list?

In case you wonder why I banned him so quickly, I have reasons.
 Not wondering at all, not my business, and not relevant. And lol. I'm sure there were some good reasons. :)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 09:27 PM, Andy wrote:
I changed his permissions (*).
Delayed reaction: what do you mean by "permissions"? Do you mean posting privileges?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

re: "I’m assuming their address appears in the banned members and past members lists (the latter if you have a premium group), and not in the members list? Just checking. If not, then you might try banning the address again."

That's the funny thing, that I was also going to mention.  And it appears to be changing even as we speak!

A few hours ago when I discovered that he unsubbed himself, I looked in:

  • the Banned Members list -- not listed there anymore!  (*)
  • the Past Members list -- he is there!

But now it gets even weirder.  When I check it again NOW, it shows:

  • the Banned Members list -- still not there.
  • the Past Members list -- now he is listed TWICE!  "Banned" on Aug. 12, and "Left" on Aug. 13.  Same exact address.

(*)  It does not entirely surprise me when someone I've banned disappears from the Banned Members list.  Every time that Mark bans someone from groups.io after I banned them from my group, their address disappears from my group's Banned Members list.  I have come to expect that, and I can trace what happened in the Activity Log.

But in this case, the Activity Log shows that nothing happened involving his email address between being banned, and the banned member unsubscribing himself.

Andy


Andy
 

... Do you mean posting privileges?

Actually, email delivery and notifications.  I don't want them to receive group messages.

To answer another question, no Subgroups.

Andy


 

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 09:48 PM, Andy wrote:
the Past Members list -- now he is listed TWICE! 
I can't explain the rest of it, but I can explain this part. The Past Members list, I recall mentioning here long ago, is really a list of actions, not of members. Each time a member is removed or leaves, their email address is added to the list again. (They can be removed or leave more than once; example: they leave, then resubscribe; or they're removed, then added again; etc. Each action goes into the list, as if it's the member.) The list, I recall suggesting here, should be renamed to reflect that it is a list of "leaving" or "removal" actions, not members. The banned list does not behave this way. I can't remember whether it used to or not. I'll mull over the rest of these oddities. :)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

You wrote

  • the Past Members list -- now he is listed TWICE!  "Banned" on Aug. 12, and "Left" on Aug. 13.  Same exact address.

It's weird that you're seeing the "banned" entries in the Past Members list. I had been testing some things recently in my group, with repeatedly banning and unbanning a member to check the display name in messages. But all I see in the Past Members list for her are the "unbanned" actions. There's only one "banned" in my entire Past Members list. So are you sure it's not that the member was banned by groups.io?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

It seems like there might be a synchronization problem here, as if one server know one thing but another server has something different.

I can't guarantee that I saw the member listed only once in the Past Members list and then a few hours later twice without us changing anything; that's only from memory.  But the actions in the Activity Log, showing the member banned and then unsubscribed himself (with nothing between them about that address) is factual.

I just re-banned several members that I had banned previously.  Probably 50 or more, mostly from April this year.  April was a busy month.

re: "So are you sure it's not that the member was banned by groups.io?"

Yes.

Andy


Andy
 

... But all I see in the Past Members list for her are the "unbanned" actions. There's only one "banned" in my entire Past Members list. So are you sure it's not that the member was banned by groups.io?

I have several Past Members with "Banned" in the Past Members list.

I think that if you Ban someone and then, later, Un-ban them, the "Banned" entry is replaced by the "Un-banned" entry.  I have one address that I experimented with, and that's what it has.  So in that single respect, it looks like groups.io does a little clean-up in the Past Members list and it is not just a list of prior actions.

If I remember right, when members were banned by groups.io, their address disappears totally from the Past Members list.  As if they never existed.  But their record remains in the Activity Log, so they were not 100% wiped clean.

Andy


Andy
 

Hmm.  I don't know if the following is more about the problem, or if I just misunderstand how it works.

Let's say address abc@xyz is on the Banned Members list.  Once there, it seems there are two ways to also "Remove" that member -- whatever "Remove" means.  Read on.

(A)  Click on the line for abc@xyz in the list of Banned Members.  At the bottom of the page, there is a bright red button "Remove".  Click that.  A dialog box says "Are you sure you wish to remove this member from the group?"  Click Yes.  Poof --> They are no longer on the Banned list!

(B)  Check the checkbox next to abc@xyz in the list of Banned Members.  At the bottom, click the blue button "Actions", and select "Remove".  Now, the dialog box says "Unsubscribe this 1 member?"  Click Yes.  Poof --> They are no longer on the Banned list!

Pardon my French, but WTF?

This suggests at least two big questions:

(1)  If someone is Banned, are they not also Removed from the group?  Is it really necessary to also Remove them, after Banning them?  They already are not on the Members List.  Are they still members even though not on the Members List?

(2)  When answering Yes to "remove from the group", why are they suddenly no longer Banned?  What's up with that?!?  Does this mean they really are not Banned and can re-join the group?

Apparently, "remove from the group" or "unsubscribe" really means "Un-ban".  WTF?

My head hurts.  (Up too late.)

Andy