Topics

moderated automatic deletion, why?


Walter Underwood
 

DMARC is an anti-spam system that makes rigorous checks on the domain of received email.

Yahoo has set their DMARC policy to “reject”, so any mail that is suspicious is rejected instead of delivered. It seems that they trust email sent from their own domain, so bounces from Yahoo email addresses never happen for Yahoo Groups.

It seems that Yahoo’s DMARC will sometimes accept email from a groups.io group and sometimes not. When it rejects the email, the user is unsubscribed because the mail bounced.

Nearly all other providers use a policy of “quarantine”, which accepts the mail but puts it in a spam folder. That policy does not cause this problem.

Other providers with a “reject” policy are AOL and Mail.ru.

wunder
Walter Underwood
wunder@...
http://observer.wunderwood.org/  (my blog)

On Mar 19, 2018, at 11:56 PM, Dave Sergeant <dave@...> wrote:

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
other various email list providers continue to work well without having
this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it but everybody
else can seem to manage without having to do anything similar?

Dave

On 20 Mar 2018 at 5:28, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon






http://davesergeant.com






 

Patty,

Was I a victim of this spam auto unsubscription process due to someone else with an @aol.com email address not being so vigilant, and having that actually occur? 

No. The mechanism is supposed to be specific to your subscription.

I suppose a glitch is possible, but it may be more likely that one got by you some time ago, and lingered in your Spam folder until it eventually was auto-deleted yesterday.

That's one of the annoyances with this whole (IMO defective) business of triggering a report based on deletion from the Spam folder - it can be a time bomb that goes off long after the message in question was sent. I really think it should be reserved for cases where the user explicitly marked a message in his/her Inbox as Spam, and should happen immediately on that event. I get somewhat snarky at times towards AOL because I think they're doing it wrong.

Either that or AOL and Yahoo Mail (both now owned by Verizon) think the FBL mechanism is for some other purpose entirely, and Mark is doing it wrong. But I've more faith in his ability to read and follow standards than in theirs.

Shal


 

Noel,

I don't understand why the member is unsubscribed rather than sending of emails being suspended like it would be for bouncing emails. That way they would still have online access.

That's an interesting idea. It resolves the objection to "No Email" by having a separate status instead of altering the member's delivery setting. Unlike bouncing though, this should be a group-specific status not something affecting delivery of messages from the member's other subscriptions.

It also begs a question of what, if any, indication the member is given on site. If there's nothing apart from that group being missing from the member's group list then I'd agree, a group-specific status would be friendlier.

On further question is whether this status should have a time-out after which it resolves to an unsubscription, or in the case of a subscription that actually wasn't desired does it end up hanging around forever. One of the reasons for the FBL mechanism is that some people use the Spam button to get rid of groups they've lost interest in because they're afraid to use an unsubscribe link.

Shal


Patty Sliney
 

Shal, and others, I just had this happen to me yesterday.  I got a notice that I was unsubscribed to this group due to marking a Groups.IO email as spam (which I did not, nor has any Groups.IO emails been found in my AOL Spam folder that I can remember).  I simply clicked on the link to resubscribe myself and the issue was instantly fixed.  Guess my question is this:  Was I a victim of this spam auto unsubscription process due to someone else with an @aol.com email address not being so vigilant, and having that actually occur?  I did take the digest email address and I added it to my Address Book, to see if that might discourage another future automatic spam unsubscribe issue.

Patty S.


Noel Leaver
 

I don't understand why the member is unsubscribed rather than sending of emails being suspended like it would be for bouncing emails. That way they would still have online access.

Noel


 

Barb,

My recommendation would be to do nothing.  Stop unsubscribing them.  It seems like the subscriber needs to fix it themselves.

Actually, I'm close to thinking this might be the practical answer. It goes with the objection that Dave and others have raised: why is it that other list services apparently do not do this?

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it

Groups.io cares on behalf of the other members using the same email service. The implementation on Groups.io started with the observation that a lot of group messages were not being delivered to certain services. And I think that means "bounced" and/or greylisted, not merely diverted to Spam. So Mark sought a way to improve overall deliverability to those services.

Perhaps the other list services take a less altruistic view of it. If you (a member) are fool enough to continue using a service that doesn't deliver the mail you want to your Inbox, well that's your problem. The fact that your problem is (in part) caused by the actions or inattention of other users of your email service doesn't mean that it isn't still your problem.

But... (there's always a but)

Would that choice merely trade one source of ongoing complaint and confusion for another, potentially larger one?

That is, "why aren't I getting the group's messages?" has long been a FAQ (at least in Yahoo Groups). People are told to check their spam folders and to add addresses to their filters and/or address books. And of course if the delivery through that service deteriorates to the point of routinely rejecting messages from Groups.io, that doesn't reflect well on Groups.io as a service either.

Shal


 

Ronaldo,

some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands
in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the
address is live...]
Note that the FBL mechanism is based on a contract between the sending service and the receiving service - just any old spam source won't be getting reports (assuming the receiving service has been careful enough).

Too, the amount of information reported to the sending service may vary - some receiving services don't include the email address that reported the message as spam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email)

Shal


 

Dave,

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all
my other various email list providers continue to work well without
having this automatic unsubscribe?
Granted it is still speculation, but my belief with respect to Yahoo Groups is that they stopped upgrades before Yahoo Mail implemented the mechanism. Another possibility is that larger, longer-established services may get a pass from the email services. Or at least better information about the email service's intent when sending the reports.

Some other GMF members and I been trying to consolidate what information is available here:
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam

Eventually I'll want to add citations to it other than just the Wikipedia article, including citing the messages from Mark about it.

Shal


Dave Sergeant
 

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
other various email list providers continue to work well without having
this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it but everybody
else can seem to manage without having to do anything similar?

Dave

On 20 Mar 2018 at 5:28, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?
It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket. Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer. A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs. And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon




http://davesergeant.com


 

If you make accusations, some of us are going to defend ourselves. Good night.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:07 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

OK, whatever you say.  Not sure why you feel the need to chime in with snarky remarks.  I have a right to ask my questions like anyone else.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 02:04 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

Nobody is being dismissive. It has been explained here many times before.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon








--
J


Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Barbara Byers
 

OK, whatever you say.  Not sure why you feel the need to chime in with snarky remarks.  I have a right to ask my questions like anyone else.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 02:04 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

Nobody is being dismissive. It has been explained here many times before.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon








--
J


Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

Nobody is being dismissive. It has been explained here many times before.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon






--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Barbara Byers
 

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon





toki
 

On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?
It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket. Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer. A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs. And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon


 

Ronaldo,

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue


Barbara Byers
 

Good idea, thanks.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 08:21 PM, ro-esp wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 06:49 am, ro-esp wrote:


After some late night reading, it seems to be like this:
some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the address is live...] , and we at iogroups fear that if we don't unsubscribe the member, that emailprovider will move many more iogroups-messages into spamfolders.

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue

                                                                   groetjes, Ronaldo


ro-esp
 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 06:49 am, ro-esp wrote:


I'm not sure why anyone would have a feature unsubscribing people
automatically.
After some late night reading, it seems to be like this:
some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the address is live...] , and we at iogroups fear that if we don't unsubscribe the member, that emailprovider will move many more iogroups-messages into spamfolders.

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue

groetjes, Ronaldo


 

Yes, it is a horrible real threat. Read the threads about this in GMF, especially one just now by Bruce Bowman.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:12 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Yes, I already read that, but it doesn't really answer my question, if there is a actual problem to doing nothing.

"...The reason is a concern that if Groups.io were to continue sending messages to that address then the email service provider might "punish" Groups.io by (more frequently) relegating other members' messages to their spam boxes."

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?  Since it seems like members are already being punished by being unsubscribed simply because a message goes into spam and they delete it.  Right?

I fully admit I am not a techie person, so perhaps this is a horrible real threat.  In that case, feel free to be condescending and laugh at me.  It just seems like the automatic unsubscribing is causing a lot of angst, as evidenced by the volume of messages about it.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 06:25 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Barbara Byers
 

Yes, I already read that, but it doesn't really answer my question, if there is a actual problem to doing nothing.

"...The reason is a concern that if Groups.io were to continue sending messages to that address then the email service provider might "punish" Groups.io by (more frequently) relegating other members' messages to their spam boxes."

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?  Since it seems like members are already being punished by being unsubscribed simply because a message goes into spam and they delete it.  Right?

I fully admit I am not a techie person, so perhaps this is a horrible real threat.  In that case, feel free to be condescending and laugh at me.  It just seems like the automatic unsubscribing is causing a lot of angst, as evidenced by the volume of messages about it.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 06:25 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce


 

It seems to be groundhog day around here...

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 3:25 PM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:
Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu