Topics

moderated automatic deletion, why?


Patty Sliney
 

Shal, and others, I just had this happen to me yesterday.  I got a notice that I was unsubscribed to this group due to marking a Groups.IO email as spam (which I did not, nor has any Groups.IO emails been found in my AOL Spam folder that I can remember).  I simply clicked on the link to resubscribe myself and the issue was instantly fixed.  Guess my question is this:  Was I a victim of this spam auto unsubscription process due to someone else with an @aol.com email address not being so vigilant, and having that actually occur?  I did take the digest email address and I added it to my Address Book, to see if that might discourage another future automatic spam unsubscribe issue.

Patty S.


 

Noel,

I don't understand why the member is unsubscribed rather than sending of emails being suspended like it would be for bouncing emails. That way they would still have online access.

That's an interesting idea. It resolves the objection to "No Email" by having a separate status instead of altering the member's delivery setting. Unlike bouncing though, this should be a group-specific status not something affecting delivery of messages from the member's other subscriptions.

It also begs a question of what, if any, indication the member is given on site. If there's nothing apart from that group being missing from the member's group list then I'd agree, a group-specific status would be friendlier.

On further question is whether this status should have a time-out after which it resolves to an unsubscription, or in the case of a subscription that actually wasn't desired does it end up hanging around forever. One of the reasons for the FBL mechanism is that some people use the Spam button to get rid of groups they've lost interest in because they're afraid to use an unsubscribe link.

Shal


 

Patty,

Was I a victim of this spam auto unsubscription process due to someone else with an @aol.com email address not being so vigilant, and having that actually occur? 

No. The mechanism is supposed to be specific to your subscription.

I suppose a glitch is possible, but it may be more likely that one got by you some time ago, and lingered in your Spam folder until it eventually was auto-deleted yesterday.

That's one of the annoyances with this whole (IMO defective) business of triggering a report based on deletion from the Spam folder - it can be a time bomb that goes off long after the message in question was sent. I really think it should be reserved for cases where the user explicitly marked a message in his/her Inbox as Spam, and should happen immediately on that event. I get somewhat snarky at times towards AOL because I think they're doing it wrong.

Either that or AOL and Yahoo Mail (both now owned by Verizon) think the FBL mechanism is for some other purpose entirely, and Mark is doing it wrong. But I've more faith in his ability to read and follow standards than in theirs.

Shal


Walter Underwood
 

DMARC is an anti-spam system that makes rigorous checks on the domain of received email.

Yahoo has set their DMARC policy to “reject”, so any mail that is suspicious is rejected instead of delivered. It seems that they trust email sent from their own domain, so bounces from Yahoo email addresses never happen for Yahoo Groups.

It seems that Yahoo’s DMARC will sometimes accept email from a groups.io group and sometimes not. When it rejects the email, the user is unsubscribed because the mail bounced.

Nearly all other providers use a policy of “quarantine”, which accepts the mail but puts it in a spam folder. That policy does not cause this problem.

Other providers with a “reject” policy are AOL and Mail.ru.

wunder
Walter Underwood
wunder@...
http://observer.wunderwood.org/  (my blog)

On Mar 19, 2018, at 11:56 PM, Dave Sergeant <dave@...> wrote:

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
other various email list providers continue to work well without having
this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it but everybody
else can seem to manage without having to do anything similar?

Dave

On 20 Mar 2018 at 5:28, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon






http://davesergeant.com






 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:56 pm, Dave Sergeant wrote:

why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
other various email list providers continue to work well without having
this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it
Because groups.io is not too big to block.


 

wunder,

DMARC is an anti-spam system ...

No, that is explicitly wrong. DMARC is an anti-spoofing mechanism. It has nothing to say about whether the messages are spam or not.

Yahoo has set their DMARC policy to “reject”, so any mail that is suspicious is rejected instead of delivered.

You've got it backwards. DMARC is a request by the sender that anyone receiving a message claiming to be from them (email header From) should make some extra tests and if the message fails the tests the receiver is asked to follow the policy. Some receivers do, some don't.

Hence Yahoo Mail's DMARC policy does not control mail inbound to Yahoo Mail. But Yahoo Mail does implement DMARC checking on inbound messages and they appear to respect the policy settings of others (including their own - for inbound messages that originated at Yahoo Mail).
 
It seems that they trust email sent from their own domain, so bounces from Yahoo email addresses never happen for Yahoo Groups.

Correct. They effectively "whitelisted" messages from Yahoo Groups by marking the yahoogroups.com domain as an allowed sender under Yahoo Mail's policies and/or including yahoogroups outbound servers in Yahoo Mail's SPF policy.

It seems that Yahoo’s DMARC will sometimes accept email from a groups.io group and sometimes not. When it rejects the email, the user is unsubscribed because the mail bounced.

No, the member is not unsubscribed for a bounce. An unsubscribe would occur only if Yahoo Mail also sent an abuse report to Groups.io - and I'm not sure it is possible or valid to send such a report for a message the service rejected at the outset.

Nearly all other providers use a policy of “quarantine”, which accepts the mail but puts it in a spam folder. That policy does not cause this problem.

And some email receivers, such as Gmail, don't strictly obey the sender's DMARC policy. Gmail takes into account more than that before deciding how to handle an inbound message. And in particular, Gmail appears to reliably ignore senders' DMARC when a message passes through a mail list like Groups.io.

Shal


toki
 

On 03/20/2018 08:13 AM, Noel Leaver wrote:
I don't understand why the member is unsubscribed rather than sending of emails being suspended like it would be for bouncing emails.
Bouncing can be a transient computer induced glitch.

Spam is, at least in theory, verified by a human. The primary issue
being one person's spam is another person's gold.

jonathon


 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 8:06 AM, Lena <Lena@...> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:56 pm, Dave Sergeant wrote:

> why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
> other various email list providers continue to work well without having
> this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it

Because groups.io is not too big to block.


Lena's right. We currently peak at a little under 5M emails sent a day, which is a lot, but not so much that it would have a ton of fallout for blocking us. I think we're still in the range of "AOL is blocking you, it's your problem" vs "AOL is blocking you, it's their problem". 

I signed up for the FBL systems because I didn't want us to be blocked. No one will use an email group service that suffers delivery issues. I've tried to make it as easy as possible to deal with false positives, with a one click re-subscribe. As a (I think valuable) bonus, list moderators know that their messages aren't ending up in spam folders.

No email provider will provide documentation on how their spam system works. Understandable, but that leaves me guessing about things. Here were some of my guesses:

- Signing up for an FBL makes us more legitimate, therefore perhaps we will suffer fewer blocks/be given more leniency
- Having a 'forcing function' that gets people to train spam filters to not mark Groups.io email as spam hopefully decreases the future likelihood of emails being marked as spam
- Fewer messages being marked as spam also makes us look more legitimate to those email providers
- Fewer messages being marked as spam will make group moderators happy and reduce support issues

But like I said, all of these were guesses and nobody was going to tell me whether they were correct.

We're signed up for the following FBL systems: aol.com, outlook.com, rr.com, earthlink.net, yahoo.com

We have been temporarily blocked by Earthlink at one point. I think we were also temporarily blocked by AOL at one point. But none of the others. I'm not sure this disproves my guess or not.

Right now, we're averaging 1 spam complaint to our hosting service (Linode) every 3 weeks or so. These days those seem to fall into 2 categories: someone on a group transferred from Yahoo, who is apparently confused and angry about what happened. The other category is reports from juno.com email addresses. I have no idea what's going on with those, as it doesn't appear to be based on complaints from the members involved. I think this level of complaints is ok, given the number of emails we send and the number of members we have. But I don't know what Linode's threshold for annoyance is; I have not talked with their trust and safety department and they don't seem to want to talk with me about it.


Thanks,
Mark


 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 10:33 am, Mark Fletcher wrote:
We're signed up for the following FBL systems: aol.com, outlook.com, rr.com, earthlink.net, yahoo.com
And hotmail? I had a hotmail member removed for marking spam, but that was in Dec. 2016.
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

I also see a "resumed membership" log entry from someone  at sympatico.ca, but no log entry for removed-for-spam.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Bob Bellizzi
 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 10:33 am, Mark Fletcher wrote:
We're signed up for the following FBL systems: aol.com, outlook.com, rr.com, earthlink.net, yahoo.com
 
att.com is hosted by yahoo and I think sbc, pacbell and probably other of the ATT domains are likely at yahoo also

So, does your Signup (above) cover these domains?

 
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 1:06 PM, Bob Bellizzi <cdfexec@...> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 10:33 am, Mark Fletcher wrote:
We're signed up for the following FBL systems: aol.com, outlook.com, rr.com, earthlink.net, yahoo.com
 
att.com is hosted by yahoo and I think sbc, pacbell and probably other of the ATT domains are likely at yahoo also

So, does your Signup (above) cover these domains?

Yes. And Outlook covers Hotmail. Sorry I wasn't more clear.


Thanks,
Mark 


toki
 

On 03/20/2018 08:06 PM, Bob Bellizzi wrote:

att.com is hosted by yahoo and I think sbc, pacbell and probably other of the ATT domains are likely at yahoo also
Does Oath still manage all of the email domains that Yahoo managed?

If so, at least another 20 domains can be added to that list.

jonathon


Barb M
 

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?
This really HAS happened to me - it's not just speculation. We were still on Y!G at the time and my email was through my ISP (i.e. a small provider, which is probably significant). A couple of times I found myself tangled up in a "blacklist" battle, where I could not receive group emails because someone else on a far-off planet had abused the system and sent a bunch of spam. It sometimes took days to get off of that Blacklist.

Since then I have switched to gmail and we are no longer on Y!G... but, having experienced that frustration in the past, I applaud steps to prevent it!

A "different" Barb


 

Hi All,

Replying to my own email.... I have been looking into a delivery issue with centurylink.net email addresses. Some people are having their digests bounce with a '5.7.1 [P4] Message blocked due to spam content in the message' message. Not terribly helpful. Contacting the postmaster address, one part of their automated reply contains this advice:

Additionally, high volume senders can apply to our feedback loop here: fbl.synacor.com

Which I have now done. We'll see if that helps, but to me it seems to imply that it may help with delivery.

Cheers, Mark


Chris Jones
 

Judging from an auto - deletion that arrived this morning wowway.com should also be on the list.

Chris.


Janis
 

Just an FYI
I had a member using SBCGlobal removed this week from two groups for marking messages as spam.  He says he did not mark any messages as spa m and is unhappy about being removed.  So far he has not found any notifications from Groups.io with links to resubscribe.  Maybe sbcglobal did not deliver the notifications.  He only found out when I emailed him to ask if he still wants to be in the groups.  He does, but has not found the notices with the resub links!

At this point I am not sure they would deliver an invite either!


KWKloeber
 

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 03:52 PM, Janis wrote:
I had a member using SBCGlobal removed this week from two groups for marking messages as spam. 
Janis there is an important distinction.  The notice doesn't say THE MEMBER marked a message as spam.  It refers to their email provider as reporting to GIO that a message was marked as spam.  It is IMPORTANT that members KNOW/UNDERSTAND why/how it works and TO CHECK their spam boxes for GIO messages and NOT DELETE THEM (or leave them in there when they clear their spam folder.)  That's when they get reported and the member gets unsubscribed.
Members have a propensity to NOT read the messages -- one complained that he was unsubscribed for SENDING spam,  Sheesh, read much?


outlawmws
 

He needs to list the group Email or site (groups.io) in his contacts (or equivalent) so as to white list it...


Janis
 

i am fully aware of that and the member is also aware of that but I worded it as it is worded in the notification topic for clarity.

Now his email is not letting him ope n the invitation I sent him!

So I will have him send a subscribe email.  Hopefully that will get him added back to the group.  SBCGlobal had moved a bunch of his mail to spam.  He had not been checking spam.