locked announce on topic lock #suggestion


Andy Wedge
 

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 11:00 PM, Andy wrote:
I think it is more correct to say that everyone who is passionate about this idea thinks it is a good one.

Personally, I don't see a good reason for this.
I don't see a good reason for this either and the last thing I want is unnecessary messages going to members just to tell them that a topic is locked.  I would object to any automatic sending of messages for this purpose and if there's an option when locking a topic, I certainly wouldn't use it and would not want it set by default.

Andy


 

Thinking a bit about this, the "both" option can work but it depends on how the group setting is structured.  If you segregate the member notifications to manual vs automatic and arrange the two options as such, it will work, i.e. that group notify is a child to the Auto-Lock (see below).  If it is a top-level option it would be impractical, as if you wanted to lock a topic you'd have to go to MessagePolicies first to turn notification ON (if you had it to OFF so as not to notify when topics are auto-locked), lock the topic).  

Which means, when locking a topic manually, a confirmation dialog would be required but it would be many clicks less than the above case.

IMO, the attached can work quite flexibly for having both per group (auto) and per topic (manual) locking member notifications:

A: If you want to notify the members when topics are automatically locked by the system due to duration (message- or hashtag-induced) set the group auto-notify ON, otherwise nothing changes/no impact on anyone, because the default is OFF.
B: If you want to notify the members when you manually locks a topic, use the Topic-notify checkbox when locking that topic, which is independent of the group setting.

This gives you the best of both worlds.  But if I had to chose between the two, I'd personally also take the manual/per topic locking with the confirmation. 
 
Cheers,
Christos


Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/24/2021 15:22, Andy Wedge wrote:
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 11:00 PM, Andy wrote:
I think it is more correct to say that everyone who is passionate about this idea thinks it is a good one.

Personally, I don't see a good reason for this.
I don't see a good reason for this either and the last thing I want is unnecessary messages going to members just to tell them that a topic is locked.  I would object to any automatic sending of messages for this purpose and if there's an option when locking a topic, I certainly wouldn't use it and would not want it set by default.

Andy

Then don't turn this option on. Just because it doesn't match your particular preferences or use cases doesn't invalidate the preferences and use cases of others.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


Donald Hellen
 

Andy . . .

On Mon, 24 May 2021 15:22:37 -0700, "Andy Wedge"
<andy_wedge@linetwo.co.uk> wrote:

I don't see a good reason for this either and the last thing I want is unnecessary messages going to members just to tell them that a topic is locked. I would object to any automatic sending of messages for this purpose and if there's an option when locking a topic, I certainly wouldn't use it and would not want it set by default.
Agreed, and I don't think anyone was thinking it should be a default
option.

Not sure how automatic locking of topics after a set period of time
goes by would be handled if a group wanted those announced also but
depending on how Mark would set this up, it could be an opt-in (not
default) option for automatically locked topics.

However, the original idea being discussed is about when a topic is
manually locked and how it can optionally send an announcement that
the topic is locked with a manual choice to do so made by the
moderator, or a setting to do so automatically but not by default (by
opt-in only). To make it default by nature would no doubt upset things
in many existing groups.

If it's desirable by some to also send an announcement when an
auto-locked topic, say after a few months (like someone here has their
groups set up to do), is locked, perhaps that could also be an option,
not set by default.

Most of us who are interested in this are just looking for some manual
way to send an announcement of the lock, and how that is done is not
as important as the ability to do it. The details can be worked out
before implementation on how the best way to do it might be.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


Andy Wedge
 

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 12:23 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Just because it doesn't match your particular preferences or use cases doesn't invalidate the preferences and use cases of others.
I didn't say it did. It was your original post that mentioned automatically doing this. If there's any option to do this, it should be opt-in not opt-out.

Andy


Bruce Bowman
 

I'm still not clear on whether this would be implemented as a member notification or an actual post to the group. The former may be more desirable so that individual members can opt out of receiving them.

There are a number of group and hashtag settings that automatically lock topics. Generating a proliferation of notifications/messages due to this could be undesirable. Anything sent should be in response to the manual locking of a topic by a Moderator. For this reason a checkbox option in some kind of new Lock Topic dialog makes sense to me.

I'll let others hash out any further details of this feature.

Regards,
Bruce


Chris Jones
 

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 03:52 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
The use case is that we locked a thread that was getting contentious and someone had composed a long and thoughtful response only to find their effort had been wasted. If they had known of the lock a priori, they wouldn't have invested the time in the response.
I am not going to argue against your suggestion of an optional notification that a topic has been locked, but I will point out that doing so does not guarantee that no - one will find out just too late that a topic to which they were composing a message has been locked.

In the cited case of a topic that was becoming contentious would it not be better to Moderate Topic from the More menu? That provides a means of stopping contentious posts appearing without stopping the acceptable ones. It also requires no change to existing group capabilities.

Chris


 

It needs to be a post to the group. Most people have their notifications off, especially the people most likely to use email, which is where the problem lies. 


On May 25, 2021, at 5:25 AM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

I'm still not clear on whether this would be implemented as a member notification or an actual post to the group. The former may be more desirable so that individual members can opt out of receiving them.

There are a number of group and hashtag settings that automatically lock topics. Generating a proliferation of notifications/messages due to this could be undesirable. Anything sent should be in response to the manual locking of a topic by a Moderator. For this reason a checkbox option in some kind of new Lock Topic dialog makes sense to me.

I'll let others hash out any further details of this feature.

Regards,
Bruce

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 05:30 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
doing so does not guarantee
Ah, here we go again! No, it does not guarantee anything. But it will help. (And it won't cure cancer, either. :)

would it not be better to Moderate Topic
Sometimes, you need - or, hey! even just want - to lock a topic.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Lynne
 

I'm having a hard time understanding why the proposed suggestion is better than the tools we already have.  Putting the topic on moderation, sending  a message to the group that the topic is locked (and why), approving my admin message, and then locking the topic seems easy enough.

Lynne


 

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 06:41 AM, Lynne wrote:
hard time understanding why the proposed suggestion is better than the tools we already have
It's not necessary to understand why. If something gets suggested here, Mark has stated many times not to argue against it. It's his decision. And if it gets implemented and you don't need it, don't use it. It's pretty clear that one way or the other - whether it's per group or per topic - it's going to be optional. So nothing to stress out abouit or argue against. But for argument's sake, several people here, including me have mentioned that moderating, announcing, and then locking is inconvenient.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/25/2021 01:50, Andy Wedge wrote:
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 12:23 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Just because it doesn't match your particular preferences or use cases doesn't invalidate the preferences and use cases of others.
I didn't say it did. It was your original post that mentioned automatically doing this. If there's any option to do this, it should be opt-in not opt-out.

Andy

Oh, I see your interpretation, that isn't what I had in mind. I thought the opt-in was implied. We are in agreement.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/25/2021 05:30, Chris Jones via groups.io wrote:
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 03:52 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
The use case is that we locked a thread that was getting contentious and someone had composed a long and thoughtful response only to find their effort had been wasted. If they had known of the lock a priori, they wouldn't have invested the time in the response.
I am not going to argue against your suggestion of an optional notification that a topic has been locked, but I will point out that doing so does not guarantee that no - one will find out just too late that a topic to which they were composing a message has been locked.

In the cited case of a topic that was becoming contentious would it not be better to Moderate Topic from the More menu? That provides a means of stopping contentious posts appearing without stopping the acceptable ones. It also requires no change to existing group capabilities.

Chris

That might work for some, but then what happens in our case is that then I get accused of "censoring" some people and not others. If everyone gets kicked out of the pool, it is at least "fair".

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


Glenn Glazer
 

All of this makes sense to me.

Best,

Glenn

On 05/25/2021 05:25, Bruce Bowman wrote:
I'm still not clear on whether this would be implemented as a member notification or an actual post to the group. The former may be more desirable so that individual members can opt out of receiving them.

There are a number of group and hashtag settings that automatically lock topics. Generating a proliferation of notifications/messages due to this could be undesirable. Anything sent should be in response to the manual locking of a topic by a Moderator. For this reason a checkbox option in some kind of new Lock Topic dialog makes sense to me.

I'll let others hash out any further details of this feature.

Regards,
Bruce


--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/25/2021 06:45, J_Catlady wrote:
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 06:41 AM, Lynne wrote:
hard time understanding why the proposed suggestion is better than the tools we already have
It's not necessary to understand why. If something gets suggested here, Mark has stated many times not to argue against it. It's his decision. And if it gets implemented and you don't need it, don't use it. It's pretty clear that one way or the other - whether it's per group or per topic - it's going to be optional. So nothing to stress out abouit or argue against. But for argument's sake, several people here, including me have mentioned that moderating, announcing, and then locking is inconvenient.

Yes, precisely, thank you.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


Donald Hellen
 

On Tue, 25 May 2021 06:45:20 -0700, "J_Catlady"
<j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

But for argument's sake, several people here, including me have mentioned that moderating, announcing, and then locking is inconvenient.
Agreed.

Having a one or two step method of locking and announcing the lock
would be convenient for some groups, especially where there's a lot of
activity in a group, even if it's used only on rare occasions.

The idea is to make it easier to manage groups, and if this isn't
needed in anyone's particular group, they don't have to use the
feature. It will no doubt be an opt-in feature that would require
checking a box or clicking a button, and not doing those things would
not trigger the announcement.

I manage close to 30 groups, most of them related to amateur radio,
and anything that makes things easier is desirable. I am adding
moderators and co-owners as they grow but this would also make it
easier for those other administrators of the groups I founded.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/25/2021 07:56, Donald Hellen wrote:
On Tue, 25 May 2021 06:45:20 -0700, "J_Catlady"
<j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

But for argument's sake, several people here, including me have mentioned that moderating, announcing, and then locking is inconvenient. 
Agreed.

Having a one or two step method of locking and announcing the lock
would be convenient for some groups, especially where there's a lot of
activity in a group, even if it's used only on rare occasions. 

The idea is to make it easier to manage groups, and if this isn't
needed in anyone's particular group, they don't have to use the
feature. It will no doubt be an opt-in feature that would require
checking a box or clicking a button, and not doing those things would
not trigger the announcement. 

I manage close to 30 groups, most of them related to amateur radio,
and anything that makes things easier is desirable. I am adding
moderators and co-owners as they grow but this would also make it
easier for those other administrators of the groups I founded. 

Donald

Yes, this was all I had in mind when I suggested this. I think the next time I suggest something here I will remember to very explicit about opt-in.

Best,

Glenn
P.S. My partner is a ham, she's studying for her general right now.

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


 

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 07:35 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
I get accused of "censoring" some people
That's another point. A system-generated "this topic is locked" message, although obviously originating from a person, is less personal, and takes a bit of the edge off the accusatory tone, of "I'm locking this topic."
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Lynne
 

"It's not necessary to understand why. If something gets suggested here, Mark has stated many times not to argue against it. It's his decision....  So nothing to stress out abouit or argue against. "

I wasn't  arguing at all, for or against.  As stated, I was just trying to understand why the proposal was a better option than what exists.  Thanks to those who took the time to explain.

Lynne


 

"Why do we need this? What we have is good enough."
These kinds of messages are easily interpretable as arguments against something. My apologies if the intention was otherwise.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu