Topics

A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

John Pearce
 

I had read about how groups.io processes bouncing in the wiki and I had also asked about this on the GMF forum.  What I found is that a 554.30 mail box disabled is not seen as a hard bounce and will not trigger groups.io to process the member as bouncing.  My problem is, members who are on special notices only in our group only get one email per month.  It bounces but it isn't enough to trigger the bounce status in the member list as it does not satisfy the 4 continuous days (or bounces) of bouncing.  So these types will build up in the list forever.  Apparently if a account is closed that would trigger bouncing after the first "hard" bounce.  But if an account is disabled it's not for 4 days or bounces.  See cut and paste from a guy who just came on bounce status today.  This guy did take 5 occurrences to show up and was placed on bounce status.  However had he been on special notice it would never happen.  We moved over to groups.io with the automated method you provide in Oct/Nov.  We had 1500 members in Yahoo on nomail, most had been members a decade or more.  I knew many were no longer valid and before the move I disallowed nomail so all those people were put on special so that they would show up as bouncing and I could eliminate them.  Many bounced as accounts do not exist and I removed them but many I saw looking at samples of the email delivery history had disabled boxes and were not put in bounce status.  So I went through all 1500 one at a time and when I found the 554.30 I removed the member.  It's now down to 900 members on special only and all are with yahoo email addresses.  I'm told on GMF that a 500 level error should trigger after one bounce.  So I opened this issues with a bug hashtag.  I do realize there could be reasons why this is not a bug but the specter of having to periodically go through that many members once a year or so to clean things up compelled me to open this and hope for the best.  Thank You

John P

Message
Digest #48
Delivered
Jan 17
Response
ok dirdel
Most Recent Unsuccessful Attempt
No email deliveries
Recent Bounces
When Message Reason
2:59am Digest #53 mta7.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to bautista_2010@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4266.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Jan 21 Bounce probe mta6.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to bautista_2010@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4018.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
Jan 20 Digest #52 mta7.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to bautista_2010@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4362.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Jan 20 Digest #51 mta7.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to bautista_2010@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4080.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Jan 19 Digest #50 mta7.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to bautista_2010@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4312.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
Jan 18 Digest #49 mta6.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to bautista_2010@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4463.mail.bf1.yahoo.com

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 03:08 PM, John Pearce wrote:
What I found is that a 554.30 mail box disabled is not seen as a hard bounce and will not trigger groups.io to process the member as bouncing.
As rather suggested by Mark's "fixed" hashtag this problem has been, er, fixed. "Our" Monthly Message goes out as a Special Notice on the 1st of every month and the outcome was that about 72 new bouncers have been listed. I haven't checked every one but those I have checked were all on Special Notice deliveries and their recorded bounces were all listed... one per month.

Definitely a better way of doing things, so thanks to John for raising the matter and thanks to Mark for the prompt fix.

Another clear - out looms...

Chris

 

Not so sure about this "fix." In my group there were no less than FOUR "xyz is bouncing via system" log entries on Feb 1 for the same member, who is subscribed via special notices, and just for good measure, there was another one this afternoon;).
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

Correction: there were four in total for this member, including the one today. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Mark Fletcher
 

On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 5:05 PM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Not so sure about this "fix." In my group there were no less than FOUR "xyz is bouncing via system" log entries on Feb 1 for the same member, who is subscribed via special notices, and just for good measure, there was another one this afternoon;).

Not sure I understand. Did you not expect the person to be bouncing? Or was it the fact that there were 4 bouncing log entries?

Thanks,
Mark 

 

It's the 4 log entries: Feb 1 at 5:30 a.m., 10:09 a.m., and 2:55 p.m., and today at 3:45 p.m. I'm expecting more tomorrow. :)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Duane
 

On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 07:05 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Not so sure about this "fix." In my group there were no less than FOUR "xyz is bouncing via system" log entries on Feb 1 for the same member
I'd bet that none of them were 554 codes which is the one (#bug) described in this topic.  My guess is that the first couple of bounces were either indeterminate hard bounces or soft bounces.  That triggered the bounce handling system which has decided to send bounce probes.  The one on Feb 4 also bounced.

As noted on the Help page, some codes may not be well defined.  GIO treats them as soft bounces to do the least damage, thus multiple entries in the Activity log.  I'd only see them there by accident since I check Bouncing in the Email Delivery History of the Member.

Duane

 

On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 10:10 PM, Duane wrote:
I'd bet that none of them were 554 codes which is the one (#bug) described in this topic.  My guess is that the first couple of bounces were either indeterminate hard bounces or soft bounces.
Possibly. But coincidentally, (a) this has never happened in my group before; (b) the logging behavior occurred immediately after the bug fix; (c) the member is on special notices only; and (d) here was only one special notice sent in my group, and it was the guidelines notice sent on Feb 1. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

Chris noted the following:
""Our" Monthly Message goes out as a Special Notice on the 1st of every month and the outcome was that about 72 new bouncers have been listed. I haven't checked every one but those I have checked were all on Special Notice deliveries and their recorded bounces were all listed... one per month."

So the new behavior in both his group and mine seem related to that bug fix. My group member is also special-notice, and she was noted as bouncing for the first time on only on Feb 1 of this year, despite her most recent successful delivery showing as April of last year. So the bug fix did finally note her as bouncing. And there was just once bounce. It's the log entries that seem off.

I wonder, Chris, whether you also have some duplicate log entries as well, like my group does for the one bouncing special-notice member.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

Actually I just checked and it's 554.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

I wonder now whether the multiple log entries originated from other groups in which the member is *also* bouncing. The guidelines notice goes out on the 1st in every group every member is in. The system logs "x is bouncing" for every message in every group the member is in, according to what I remember.  So it makes sense that if the member is in four groups, four messages bounced on the same day - one for each group's guidelines message (even though only one was from mine). Maybe the guidelines go out at different times of day depending on the time zone? I'm just guessing here.

If this is the issue, I would change the bounce handler so that if the member is already bouncing (i.e., blue B), no further log entries would be triggered for that member (unless, of course, they unbounce in between).
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Chris Jones
 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 06:59 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I wonder, Chris, whether you also have some duplicate log entries as well, like my group does for the one bouncing special-notice member.
I'm not currently aware of any "anomalies" but I'll have a closer look later; for the moment other off - line activities have to take precedence!

In the meantime when you say "logged" do you mean in Activity or in the individual member's Email Delivery History?

Chris

 

The group activity log. That’s where bouncing accounts are logged, even when they’ve bounced a messsge from another group. I’m thinking this bounce-handler bug is showing up now for the first time only because the 554 bug was fixed, which caused one-time special-notice guideline bounced messages to cause accounts to be marked blue B, which causes log entries for every group they’re in to be logged in every other group they’re in. Because all auto-sent guidelines are sent on the 1st of the month, you would now (for the first time, because of the fixed bug) see multiple log entries for a single member on the same day. If this is what happened, the bounce handler bug existed before but was only made manifest since the 554 bug was fixed. If all of this is correct, the bug is thst it creates a log entry that a member is bouncing when the member already has a blue B in the group.


On Feb 5, 2020, at 12:59 AM, Chris Jones via Groups.Io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 06:59 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I wonder, Chris, whether you also have some duplicate log entries as well, like my group does for the one bouncing special-notice member.
I'm not currently aware of any "anomalies" but I'll have a closer look later; for the moment other off - line activities have to take precedence!

In the meantime when you say "logged" do you mean in Activity or in the individual member's Email Delivery History?

Chris

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

John Pearce
 

Are these from Yahoo and does is say 554.30 This mailbox is disabled?  Remember this bounce code from yahoo indicates that the yahoo account has not been used for at least 1 year.  So any bounces previous to the fix did not show up in the bouncing member list as the frequency of once a month was not enough to trigger bounce processing.  Then the frequency is reset because there were not enough bounces within a few days.  So they would never have gotten the blue "B" in the first place.  That is the change, that they show up with a blue B now and are placed in actual bounce status where before they did not.  You should give us some cut and pastes so we can see what you are seeing.  Here is what I get for a member.  Note on the 1st there are two.  One for the message and one for the bounce probe.  The member activity log and the group activity log both match what you see below.


Feb 4 Bounce probe mta6.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to xyz@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4045.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Feb 1 Bounce probe mta6.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to xyz@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4153.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
Feb 1 [maganak] Group Guidelines mta7.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to xyz@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4277.mail.bf1.yahoo.com

 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 08:27 AM, John Pearce wrote:
Are these from Yahoo
Yes
does is say 554.30 This mailbox is disabled
Yes

So any bounces previous to the fix did not show up in the bouncing member list as the frequency of once a month was not enough to trigger bounce processing.
Exactly, and that's why this is showing up only now. The multiples are probably because it was the first of the month and group guidelines are sent out on that date, mostly as special notices, and she is a special-notice member in my group (and probably the others). 

Then the frequency is reset because there were not enough bounces within a few days.  So they would never have gotten the blue "B" in the first place.  That is the change, that they show up with a blue B now and are placed in actual bounce status

Yes. I am intimately familiar with the bounce handler. All of that is correct, and that's why only now does the member show up (finally) as bouncing, despite month upon month of these bounces. Too much time in between.

I've sent a bug report, which you may have already seen. I think the bug, finally recognized only now because of the "perfect storm" of 554 bug fix and monthly group guidelines, is that the bounce handler should not create a new log entry in a group "is bouncing" if the member is already marked as bouncing there.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

John,

You are right. There's one 554 for the group guidelines, and three for bounce probes. So the log entries are not, as I formerly suspected, coming from other groups. They are coming from the bounce probes themselves.

So although my bug report still stands in that I don't think separate log entries "is bouncing" should be created once the member is already blue "B," the underlying reason I guessed for the multiples (group guidelines from multiple groups) is incorrect. I am seeing more or less what you are seeing in the email delivery history, except that there are more bounce probes in my member's case, probably because I sent one by hand.

I'll go into my bug report thread and correct this.

Thanks.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Chris Jones
 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 08:59 AM, I wrote:
I'm not currently aware of any "anomalies" but I'll have a closer look later; for the moment other off - line activities have to take precedence!
Off - line activities completed (for now!) I have had a more detailed look and now think I have seen the anomalous Activity log entries mentioned; they only seem to arise for a very small number of bouncing members, manifesting as a greater number of recorded bounces than group traffic can account for.

As it happens I do not use the Activity log entries as part of the weeding process, relying on the member's activity and email delivery records as the guiding factors in whether or not to delete them from the group.

Also (FWIW) I think I have seen these anomalous Activity log entries prior to the recent bugfix.

Chris

 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 08:58 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
I think I have seen these anomalous Activity log entries prior to the recent bugfix.
Exactly right. The bug (of multiple "is bouncing" log entries) pre-existed, but I only see it manifested now because of the fact that this special-notice member was finally noted as bouncing because of the 554 finally categorized as a hard bounce. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

JediPirx
 

I would just like to squeeze in some more data to this topic to
show it is not just related to users with special-notice delivery,
as well as other observations.

For me, the bounce code seems to be working.

Stan/jp/elgio

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Transfer of my group from YG to GIO occurred on Thu 2019/11/14.

In 2019 there were 2 occurrences of multiple bounces : 14 Yahoo
email addresses on Fri 2019/11/15, and 118 Yahoo email addresses
on Wed 2019/11/20. Since then, quiet.

Looking at Admin-->Activity logs last week, 10 users started
bouncing as of Jan 30, 2020. These were triggered initially by
messages I posted followed by bounce probes.

Of the 10 users, 9 have email addresses on yahoo.com and 1 has an
email address on yahoo.co.uk. Basically, all Yahoo. Of the 10 users,
6 have Single-Delivery set, and 4 have Full-Digest-Delivery set.
The oldest account is from 2003-07-03 and the newest is from
2018-06-09

Then looking at the Email Delivery History for each user, multiple
entries were seen dating back to Sat 2019-11-16, just 2 days after
my group arrived in GIO. Here is the Email Delivery History for
one such user, the remaining users are the same.

Why did GIO not flag these 10 users/email addresses last year ?
I do not know. The accounts were already disabled by Yahoo in
2019.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

05:17 Bounce probe mta7.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error:
dd Sorry, your message to <...>@yahoo.com cannot be delivered.
This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4032.mail.ne1.yahoo.com

Jan 31 Digest #9 mta6.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error:
dd Sorry, your message to <...>@yahoo.com cannot be delivered.
This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4308.mail.bf1.yahoo.com

Jan 23 Digest #8 mta5.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error:
dd Sorry, your message to <...>@yahoo.com cannot be delivered.
This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4393.mail.ne1.yahoo.com

Jan 21 Digest #7 mta6.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error:
dd Sorry, your message to <...>@yahoo.com cannot be delivered.
This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4390.mail.bf1.yahoo.com

Jan 1 Digest #6 mta7.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error:
dd Sorry, your message to <...>@yahoo.com cannot be delivered.
This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4222.mail.gq1.yahoo.com

2019-12-28 Digest #5 mta6.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error:
dd Sorry, your message to <...>@yahoo.com cannot be delivered.
This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4356.mail.gq1.yahoo.com

2019-12-09 Digest #4 mta5.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error:
dd Sorry, your message to <...>@yahoo.com cannot be delivered.
This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4223.mail.ne1.yahoo.com

2019-11-20 Digest #3 mta5.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error:
dd Sorry, your message to <...>@yahoo.com cannot be delivered.
This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4312.mail.bf1.yahoo.com

2019-11-19 Digest #2 mta5.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error:
dd Sorry, your message to <...>@yahoo.com cannot be delivered.
This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4222.mail.bf1.yahoo.com

2019-11-16 Digest #1 mta6.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error:
dd Sorry, your message to <...>@yahoo.com cannot be delivered.
This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4078.mail.bf1.yahoo.com

 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 02:30 PM, JediPirx wrote:
Why did GIO not flag these 10 users/email addresses last year ?
I do not know.
Because the conditions back then for setting a member to "bouncing" were not satisfied. You need either a hard bounce, or at least one soft bounce within every consecutive four consecutive days after the first soft bounce, plus at least four soft bounces total, for the member to be flagged as bouncing. Those are all 554.30 codes in what you posted, and they did not (until the recent bug fix) count as a hard bounce. So you needed other condition. Looking quickly through the dates in your example (and bear in mind I'm looking quickly), it does not seem that the bouncing dates conditions were satisfied.

If the above were to happen today, the member would be set to "bouncing" because 554 now qualifies as a hard bounce and you would not need all those date conditions.


 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu