moderated Make available printed manuals #suggestion


Bruce Bowman
 

Recent discussions in group_help have suggested that printed manuals provided by groups.io might be desirable, with appropriate remuneration.

Ref:  https://groups.io/g/Group_Help/topic/87657765#3312 

Wondering if anyone else would really be interested in this (and if so, what the price point should be).

Regards,
Bruce


Andy
 

Wondering if anyone else would really be interested in this (and if so, what the price point should be).

For me, no.

Even if it cost $0, I think I would not.

Sometimes I do prefer hardcopy, because I am old fashioned enough that I like to sit down and read and hold something.  But for this I think I need the ability to search.

Andy


Glenn Glazer
 

On 12/12/2021 09:28, Andy wrote:
Wondering if anyone else would really be interested in this (and if so, what the price point should be).

For me, no.

Even if it cost $0, I think I would not.

Sometimes I do prefer hardcopy, because I am old fashioned enough that I like to sit down and read and hold something.  But for this I think I need the ability to search.

Andy

I wouldn't either, but I would be careful to note that preferences are things that legitimately vary among reasonable people and the existence of a hardcopy manual that I don't have to buy doesn't impact me in any way at all.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


Chris Jones
 

On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 05:39 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
...the existence of a hardcopy manual that I don't have to buy doesn't impact me in any way at all.
Actually it might. If someone with a hard copy "gives up" and comes to you for a bit of help then confusion is likely if you work with the most up to date on - line version while the other person is working with an out of date printed version. A printed copy might have a very short shelf life.

Like Andy I like the searchability of the on - line version.

Chris


Ginger Iorizzo
 

It seems to me that we would need revised copies quite frequently.  Mark often makes changes and/or updates that then need to be changed in the owners manual.  The info might be outdated by the time I need it.
Just my .02
Ginger


From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> on behalf of Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2021 12:39 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [beta] Make available printed manuals #suggestion
 
On 12/12/2021 09:28, Andy wrote:
Wondering if anyone else would really be interested in this (and if so, what the price point should be).

For me, no.

Even if it cost $0, I think I would not.

Sometimes I do prefer hardcopy, because I am old fashioned enough that I like to sit down and read and hold something.  But for this I think I need the ability to search.

Andy

I wouldn't either, but I would be careful to note that preferences are things that legitimately vary among reasonable people and the existence of a hardcopy manual that I don't have to buy doesn't impact me in any way at all.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


Glenn Glazer
 

On 12/12/2021 09:55, Chris Jones via groups.io wrote:
On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 05:39 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
...the existence of a hardcopy manual that I don't have to buy doesn't impact me in any way at all.
Actually it might. If someone with a hard copy "gives up" and comes to you for a bit of help then confusion is likely if you work with the most up to date on - line version while the other person is working with an out of date printed version. A printed copy might have a very short shelf life.

Like Andy I like the searchability of the on - line version.

Chris

I grant that this might be true for some admins. Given the member base of my various groups, the probability of this happening to me is less than epsilon.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


Donald Hellen
 

Andy . . .

On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 09:28:38 -0800, "Andy" <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:

Sometimes I do prefer hardcopy, because I am old fashioned enough that I like to sit down and read and hold something. But for this I think I need the ability to search.
Add to this the fact that Mark is constantly improving GIO, a manual would be
outdated sooner than later. An online or downloadable manual would get you the
latest changes incorporated into it.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


Andy
 

I never looked into this myself, but I have heard that there are on-demand publishers who can print, bind, and ship any small book on-demand for a reasonable cost.  That would avoid having boxes of outdated manuals ready to ship.  I have no contacts and don't know what constitutes "reasonable cost"; but it might be a solution for those who want to hold a book and dog-ear its pages.

Andy


Bob Bellizzi
 

I have lots of manuals in printed form that were out of date either before or soon after I purchased them.
GIO is developing far too rapidly to try to do this.
We should bless the inventors of the Internet for giviing us this realtime, continually up to date way to understand a product as it keeps evolving.
Otherwise someone would have to weigh the value of a change vs not only its' advisability but also have to  consider the cost of new manuals and how many to order, who to notify, etc.
I've been in this business for over 50 years and don't ever expect tto need a hard copy of such a complex product that is constantly evolving.

--

Bob Bellizzi
FuchsFriends@groups.io online  support  group for corneal dystrophy patients & caregivers
The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation 


Pete Cook
 

Let's not forget that the Guy Code prohibits the reading of manuals by men (in the same way the reading of road maps is not permitted).


Massie, Jerry
 

This one is actually pretty easy.  Provide the "hardcopy" manual as a PDF, which makes it searchable either in online or offline copy, and allows users to print a copy locally (at their own expense) if they wish.

The only problem would be getting someone to make timely revisions so that the latest "official" manual is reasonably current.

Jerry


Dr. MC Black
 

Please, PLEASE, P L E A S E have a printed manual.

I find it impossible to follow instructions given "on screen" because I have forgotten what was suggested by the time I have gone back to the application.

There is  a series of books "The Missing Manual" which would  NOT exist if people did NOT want a printed manual.

I appreciate that lots of people don't want a manual.

My view is  that if somebody is  selling an application (for hundreds of pounds) the additional cost of offering a printed manual would  be infinitesimal - especially if it was supplied on request rather than "in the box"

Of course that argument does NOT apply in the case of Groups.IO

MC Black (Dr.)


Joseph Hudson
 

Hello, what about an option to just print the manual that's already on the site. That way you could just print it yourselves I think that would be more feasible.

On Dec 12, 2021, at 6:03 PM, Dr. MC Black <mcb@...> wrote:

Please, PLEASE, P L E A S E have a printed manual.

I find it impossible to follow instructions given "on screen" because I have forgotten what was suggested by the time I have gone back to the application.

There is  a series of books "The Missing Manual" which would  NOT exist if people did NOT want a printed manual.

I appreciate that lots of people don't want a manual.

My view is  that if somebody is  selling an application (for hundreds of pounds) the additional cost of offering a printed manual would  be infinitesimal - especially if it was supplied on request rather than "in the box"

Of course that argument does NOT apply in the case of Groups.IO

MC Black (Dr.)


David
 

You can have the downloadable manual in PDF. That's easy to print as desired.


Glenn Glazer
 

Whose going to do all of the work to keep a printed version up to date?

It seems like it would be a lot of... lowers shades.... manual labor.

YEAAAAH!

Best,

Glenn
(I'll see myself out)

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


 

IMO, printed manuals still have a place today but only for things that don't change that much; for an ever-evolving system like GIO, a printed manual would be really impractical to implement as (if it was to be done the right way like they used to do it back then), it would first require restructuring of the help file structure so printed pages could be easily inserted/deleted/replaced without affecting all page numbering and whatnot, it would require someone to print (on demand) the (current) hardcopy and mail it, and also someone to keep track of changes and email the printed manual recipients/buyers/whatever the changed pages PDF with instructions to "replace pages x-y with the new versions, or remove page(s) x-y or insert pages a-b in section x after page y, etc, etc.  Back then they had dedicated staff who did that function.

By the time all this complexity and cost is accounted for, it may as well be cheaper and/or less time spent to add context-sensitive help on the various pages using popups or similar, and if someone still wanted a printed copy, they can print the PDF or go to a print shop and have it printed for them.

Cheers,
Christos


Duane
 

On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 06:50 PM, Massie, Jerry wrote:
Provide the "hardcopy" manual as a PDF, which makes it searchable either in online or offline copy,
The manuals already exist as pdfs that can be downloaded and/or printed.  It looks like many folks haven't even found them - https://groups.io/helpcenter.  All are updated as needed, often within a few days after a change is made to the site.  The Owners and Members manuals have each been updated ~20 times this year!

Duane


Andy
 

I suggest that the incremental changes are not nearly so severe, that the manuals become immediately obsolete.

Surely if someone wants a printed manual, they must understand that it was current before they got it, and probably not up to date soon after.  In other words, if they truly need a printed manual, they probably know this already, and are OK with it.

I would not expect anyone to send periodic updates, like the U.S. GPO.

Andy


Andy Wedge
 

On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 12:50 AM, Dr. MC Black wrote:
I find it impossible to follow instructions given "on screen" because I have forgotten what was suggested by the time I have gone back to the application.
Is there a reason why you cannot have two windows side-by-side with a manual in one and Groups.io in the other?  That would seem the simplest option if you want to look at two things at the same time.

Regards
Andy


Mark Murphy
 

On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 11:42 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
Recent discussions in group_help have suggested that printed manuals provided by groups.io might be desirable, with appropriate remuneration.
I think the key point here is "provided by groups.io." There's no need for groups.io to be involved since there are many PDF printing services that a member or owner could use themselves to print the PDF manual on demand. For example, I can get a printed and bound copy of the Groups.io Owners Manual for less than $15 including shipping at printme1.com (not affiliated with them).