moderated Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug


 

When you put a Moderated hashtag on an already existing topic, all replies from that point on are, correctly, moderated. But if you put such a hashtag on a Topic when it is first created (i.e., when you post the first message), even the first message itself is moderated. This seems contrary to intention (hence my using #bug in addition to #suggestion for this conversation) and serves no obvious useful purspose. All it does is subject the creator of the post to moderation in the very post itself.

The suggestion is to change the behavior (and also the description - see below) of the tag so that for new topics with the tag, only replies to the topic are moderated, not the first message itself.

The description on the hashtag page currently reads "Messages with this hashtag will be moderated." It should read "Replies to topics with this hashtag are moderated."
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

It might serve a useful purpose.

If the owners of a group want a hastag to require moderation, they might want that to happen all the time, not only for replies.  Group members can be devious and do things you may not want them to do.

Andy


Andy
 

Sorry --

What I meant by "It might serve a useful purpose" was that the suggestion that the present behavior "serves no obvious useful purpose" may in fact be wrong.  Even though you didn't see any use to it, it might have been wanted that way by someone else.

Andy


Malcolm Austen
 

On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:08:27 -0000, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

When you put a Moderated hashtag on an already existing topic, all replies from that point on are, correctly, moderated. But if you put such a hashtag on a Topic when it is first created (i.e., when you post the first message), even the first message itself is moderated. This seems contrary to intention (hence my using #bug in addition to #suggestion for this conversation) and serves no obvious useful purspose. All it does is subject the creator of the post to moderation in the very post itself.

It's the use of the hashtag that is moderated. I don't want to allow every group member to post any message with, say, #admin on it!!

The current operation is exactly right, the suggestion would break things! The only use I can enviage for moderated replies only would be on a topic started by a moderator and they can easily allow their own message through (as I do with #admin).

The suggestion is to change the behavior (and also the description - see below) of the tag so that for new topics with the tag, only replies to the topic are moderated, not the first message itself.

As above, Nooo, please not.

The description on the hashtag page currently reads "Messages with this hashtag will be moderated." It should read "Replies to topics with this hashtag are moderated."

The current text is right. The only possible change I could see as sensible would perhaps to allow hashtags to have alternative settings of either "moderated" or "moderate replies".

Malcolm.

--
Malcolm Austen - email: malcolm.austen@...


 

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 07:36 AM, Andy wrote:
"serves no obvious useful purpose" may in fact be wrong.
Which is why I used the word "obvious." I challenge anyone to think of a use for this. I think it's a bug. Think about it: it forces the creator of the message/topic themselves to go through moderation when creating the topic. They can't even post the topic without having it approved! If you want that forced on a member, then put the member themself on moderation. So I challenge anyone to think of something - even something "devious" - useful about this behavior. It strikes me as simply, and obviously, wrong.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 07:46 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
I don't want to allow every group member to post any message with, say, #admin on it!!
Then set that hashtag to "use by mods only."
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 07:46 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
It's the use of the hashtag that is moderated.
No, it's the Topic behavior. I think you have been using Moderated hashtags incorrectly.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Malcolm Austen
 

On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:52:54 -0000, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 07:46 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
I don't want to allow every group member to post any message with, say, #admin on it!!
 Then set that hashtag to "use by mods only."

Yea, in fact I have, so here's a better example ...

Suppose I have a general discussion list with a hashtag #announcement that I want to allow anyone to use but always want it moderated so I can check it really is a suitable announcement for the group.

Your change would prevent me doing that wouldn't it?

Malcolm.

--
Malcolm Austen - email: malcolm.austen@...


Malcolm Austen
 

On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:54:51 -0000, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 07:46 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
It's the use of the hashtag that is moderated.
No, it's the Topic behavior. I think you have been using Moderated hashtags incorrectly.

The topic inherits the behaviour from the hashtag. I believe I use hashtags correctly but that you want a new and different behaviour which could only be done by adding a new hashtag property, not by changing the behaviour of an existing and useful one.

Malcolm.

--
Malcolm Austen - email: malcolm.austen@...


 

You're using hashtags incorrectly. They act on topics, not individual messages.
"When a hashtag is set to Moderated, messages sent to topics tagged with it require approval by a moderator."
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 08:24 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
The topic inherits the behaviour from the hashtag.
No. The topic AQUIRES the behavior from the hashtag. It does not "inherit" the behavior. Hashtags are not, and cannot be, moderated. Only topics can be modered.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

These are basic concepts.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Bruce,
I don't think your request sparked controversy, except as a tangent by people misunderstanding the Moderated attribute and what it applies. I'd be fine with your disable option, and I also think that fixing the moderated-first-message bug will give you another good option.
Like you, I'm done here, too!
Best of luck!
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Since this just came up in docs, I want to add here a point I made there but did not sufficiently emphasize here: If a hashtag marked "Locked" is applied to a topic on topic creation, only the replies are locked (i.e., bounce), which is correct behavior. Because imagine what would happen if Locked behaved the same way as Moderated currently does, namely, if it applied even to the first message. In that case the first message itself would bounce, locking even the topic itself out of existence.  You couldn't even create the topic. So at minimum, the behavior of a hashtag with these two attributes is inconsistent.

I understand that people have been exploiting this bug (or feature, if they prefer) to restrict use of certain hashtags. But I don't think that's the way to do it. And if the behavior stays as is, it certainly needs to be clearly documented, because I find it totally unintuitive.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 9:43 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Since this just came up in docs, I want to add here a point I made there but did not sufficiently emphasize here: If a hashtag marked "Locked" is applied to a topic on topic creation, only the replies are locked (i.e., bounce), which is correct behavior. Because imagine what would happen if Locked behaved the same way as Moderated currently does, namely, if it applied even to the first message. In that case the first message itself would bounce, locking even the topic itself out of existence.  You couldn't even create the topic. So at minimum, the behavior of a hashtag with these two attributes is inconsistent.

But..... the behavior is consistent with the No Email, Special and Use by Mods Only flags. You could say that it's the Locked flag that's inconsistent. :-) As you know, I do love me my consistencies, but I think in this case, everything is as it should be.

I'm happy to add/change the descriptions of the various flags to make them more clear, but I don't see a compelling case to change the existing behavior.

Thanks,
Mark


 

Mark,

LOL. As long as it's inconsistent, I just think the documentation has to be very clear in the documentation. This behavior really came as a shock to me, so much so that I couldn't even believe it was happening. For example, the doc for "Locked" says the topic is "immediately locked." Which, of course, means that it's locked after the first message goes through. So for the others, I think it's important to state that the behavior attaches even to the first message in the topic. I never would have guessed in a zillion years that Moderated would apply even as the person creates the topic (or attempts to).

I would further make sure the documentation explains that it's not the hashtag itself (in all of those cases) that's moderated: it's the topic bearing the tag that's moderated.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu