Icon display consistency issue when setting a topic to both locked and moderated #bug


 

Hi Mark,

This is a minor display consistency issue in Topics view.  A topic can be set to both locked and moderated.  But unlike the combo of moderated & sticky or locked & sticky, which display both the locked or moderated icon alongside the sticky icon, the locked & moderated combo only shows the locked icon.  Shouldn't it display both the locked & moderated icons?   (plus the the sticky icon as the third icon if that's also set, or is it a matter of having only two available slots to show prefix icons?)
 
Cheers,
Christos


Chris Jones
 

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 04:13 AM, Christos Psarras wrote:
Shouldn't it display both the locked & moderated icons?
Why? A locked topic does not accept further posts irrespective of any moderation status. I would argue that having both Locked and Moderated flags would be a source of confusion; a topic can be Moderated or it can be Locked, but it cannot be both at the same time.

Chris.


 

Chris,

>>> Why? A locked topic does not accept further posts irrespective of any moderation status.

Not a 100% correct statement; from regular users, yes it doesn't, but it still accepts messages from admins just fine.  The difference is that if also moderated, the message goes into pending, but if not it sails through.

 

>>> a topic can be Moderated or it can be Locked, but it cannot be both at the same time.

Wait, how can you say that when one can set the topic to both?  Try it and you'll see, moderate a topic and moderated icon shows up.  Then lock it, moderated icon disappears and gets replaced by the locked icon.  Topic is now both locked and moderated but only the locked icon shows up.  Unlock it, locked icon goes away and gets replaced by moderated icon.

This works differently than the sticky icon which "appends" to any existing constraint/icon.

 

>>> I would argue that having both Locked and Moderated flags would be a source of confusion.

I personally don't see how it would, when the system itself allows one to set it to both.  If nothing else, to me it's a visual reminder that I have set that topic to both constraints.

Cheers,
Christos

 


 

I think the current display protocol is correct. Even though internally a topic may be both locked and moderated, what that really means is that it is locked, and that if and when it becomes unlocked, it reverts to moderated. It is not really both at the same time. "Moderated" has no meaning if the topic is locked (i.e., can't be posted to), and having both icons would make no sense to group members. It is a completely different situation from Locked and Sticky, which can (meaningfully) exist at the same time, internally AND externally.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 11:54 AM, Christos Psarras wrote:

>>> Why? A locked topic does not accept further posts irrespective of any moderation status.

Not a 100% correct statement; from regular users, yes it doesn't, but it still accepts messages from admins just fine.  The difference is that if also moderated, the message goes into pending, but if not it sails through.

It was only recently that locked topics became postable by mods (courtesy of strong argument here and eventual implementation by Mark). It makes more sense to me not to display two icons which seem contradictory to group members, just so that mods will know that THEIR posts to the topic will go through moderation.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 11:04 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
not to display two icons which seem contradictory to group members, just so that mods will know that THEIR posts to the topic will go through moderation
I suspect that very few members pay any attention to the icons.  I know mine don't, unless it's one of the mods.  As long as the Reply button is gone when it's locked, I don't see that it would be a big problem to also have the moderated icon.

Duane


 

True that some don’t pay attention. But it still seems wrong to have both. The argument for having both is that mods can post to locked topics. That seems a weak (and accidental) argument.


On Sep 22, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 11:04 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
not to display two icons which seem contradictory to group members, just so that mods will know that THEIR posts to the topic will go through moderation
I suspect that very few members pay any attention to the icons.  I know mine don't, unless it's one of the mods.  As long as the Reply button is gone when it's locked, I don't see that it would be a big problem to also have the moderated icon.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

Speaking as a groups.io user (not moderator), I want to present the argument that the icons are useless anyway.

If I hover my mouse over one, what do I see?  Nothing.  I wait.  I hear crickets.  I move on.

If the user interface forces me to find a user-manual that I probably didn't know existed, then read through pages and pages of it, just to figure out what the icon means, then clearly it is not something the managers wanted me to know, and I'm not going to bother.  Therefore, those icons are just meaningless decoration to clutter our screens.

There.  I've said it.  My point is, the icons will not mean anything to all but 0.1% of the people using groups.io.

Now if you gave it mouse-over text so that the ordinary group user could maybe decipher them, or a pop-up if you click on them, then I might think otherwise.  But maybe that was the point -- to make them meaningless to all members other than Moderators.

Andy


 

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 07:45 AM, Andy wrote:
If I hover my mouse over one, what do I see?  Nothing.  I wait.  I hear crickets.
That doesn't make them useless. That just makes them laconic. :-)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

>>> The argument for having both is that mods can post to locked topics. That seems a weak (and accidental) argument.

No, that wasn't the argument, after all mods can always post to locked topics regardless. 

The argument was that the icon display is (visually) acting inconsistently compared to the other icons' display.

Now if you want to argue that my POV was from a mod perspective, I guess it has merit ... I mean one can say that they moderated a topic for whatever reason, then decided to lock it, but because the icon doesn't display they miss that it's also moderated so when they email-send in a reply later-on to tell folks the topic is now locked, they are left wondering what happened, and they have to go and visit online to figure things out and eventually do a facepalm... :)

Cheers,
Christos


 

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:45 AM, Andy wrote:
If I hover my mouse over one, what do I see?  Nothing.
That is actually a very good point, tooltips can be very helpful to folks.  One of the mods (who reads online) in one of my groups sent me this when I told them I first moderated that particular topic:
 

>>> I now know what that balance scale icon means before the subject line of the message (in the Web interface).
 

In my reply I pointed him to the manual's badge & icon pages.

Cheers,
Christos


 

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:48 AM, Christos Psarras wrote:
No, that wasn't the argument, after all mods can always post to locked topics regardless. 
That is not correct, if you mean that moderators' messages to a locked topic are not moderated. In fact, you yourself wrote this:
"

>>> Why? A locked topic does not accept further posts irrespective of any moderation status.

Not a 100% correct statement; from regular users, yes it doesn't, but it still accepts messages from admins just fine.  The difference is that if also moderated, the message goes into pending, but if not it sails through."

And *that* bolded statement is correct. Moderators' messages will be moderated in moderated topics UNLESS the mod is also marked "P" (overried: can post). So your argument (bolded statement) for displaying both icons seems, or seemed at that point, to be that it allows moderators to know that the topic is also moderated (in addition to being locked) to give them a heads up about their own posts. And that is the only valid argument, in my opinion. Your original argument, which you now restate (moving target?;):
"The argument was that the icon display is (visually) acting inconsistently compared to the other icons' display."

is not really accurate IMO. This is a very different situation from two icons/settings equal in the hierarchy, such as Locked and Sticky. Those don't have any dependence on each other.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Since this is getting very muddy: I think that the original argument fby Christos for wanting to display both icons - namely, consistency with other multiple statuses - is invalid bedause Locked and Moderated have a unique relationship to each other. And I think that his second argument for both icons - namely, to let moderators know that even though they can post to a locked topic, their posts will be moderated, while correct, is weak and doesn't trump possible confusion on the part of non-mod group members who see both icons. And I think that Duane's point that many or most non-mod users won't be confused by seeing both icons because they don't even notice the icons at all is weaker still.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu