moderated Log rejected messages #suggestion


 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:05 AM, Duane wrote:
you're right back to having to search through it
Actually that's not the case if you implement the way I suggested, namely, the activity log entries would contain links to the content of whatever was done. See my prior message. So you see that someone rejected a message and you could go right to it in the "unsent message archive" (or whatever it would be called). Just as now, you see that someone approved a message and can go right to it in the message archive. Completely analogous, no searching required.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:05 AM, Duane wrote:
you'd get the same results by using your own email records for searching.
Maybe but the same could be said of the message archive. Why not just search through all your emails for any groups.io message you want to find? In fact, wjhy not go back to a pure email-only system?

I think storing the non-group-sent messages in a dedicated archive is better than glomming them all into the activity log, because I agree with Andy that that bogs it down. And already, some of them are going there anyway (mod message to member, invite, rejection notice). The glaring lack are the rejected messages themselves. I also don't see bcc'ing all mods by default as "a little tweak." Maybe a programming little tweak, but large in its effect.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:05 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Maybe there could be a separate message archive for messages and notices that don't go to the group: rejected messages from group members, rejection notifications, rejected messages from non-group members (I think this one might be better as a group option), invite messages, etc.
It seems to me that if all this is stored on site, you're right back to having to search through it to get the information you want.  Seems like a lot of work/coding for little return when you'd get the same results by using your own email records for searching.  A little tweak, having rejection notices sent to all moderators by default, would accomplish the intended solution.  That wouldn't be foolproof though because some moderators wouldn't want to send it to all other mods and would turn off the check box.

Duane


 

Maybe there could be a separate message archive for messages and notices that don't go to the group: rejected messages from group members, rejection notifications, rejected messages from non-group members (I think this one might be better as a group option), invite messages, etc. I would not include spam messages or any other messages rejected by the system (too large, etc.). I have not thought out the details of this, but in keeping with Andy's concerns about bogging down the activity log, a separate message archive for these kinds of things might make sense. As in the regular message archive, each one would be a link that could be clicked on to see the full content.

It would be great to connect these content links to the corresponding activity log entry. So the log entry would read: "xyz rejected message abc [link to rejected message] with reason pqr [link to rejection notice]." Or "xyz sent message abc [link to message] to member pqr." Same with invites and any other content too large to include in the actual activity log. (I still would not include spam messages or any messages bouncing because of size.)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

I just checked and my Activity Log file exceeds 32 Megabytes.  Even the electrons add up.

I like being able to scan down the Log entries.  When I encounter whole messages there, it kind of disrupts that.

Andy


 

Andy, I have to admit that I, too, find it weird that they’re put into the same activity log with all the one-liners. At one point I debated with myself whether it really matters, and decided it didn’t. I couldn’t really point to a clear downside. It’s not like we’re burning paper.


On Aug 12, 2021, at 7:20 AM, Andy <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:

We receive sometimes dozens of non-member messages daily.  I would not want them in the Log.  I might accept having them sent to me by email (but I would probably opt-out of receiving them, after the first week or two).

To me, if a message exceeds 2 lines -- no, make that 1 line -- I wouldn't want it in the Log.

Mind you, I am fairly opinionated about this.  I guess you can tell.

Yes, I am objecting to those hard-won Owner messages sent to members.  Clearly you want them.  Clearly, I don't.  IMO, the Log file is not the place to put them.

Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

I can see the value in that. I am even more hesitant to go down the slippery slope of more options, but of course, these logging categories could be made group options. My preference would be that some are just picked and everybody gets them.


On Aug 12, 2021, at 7:15 AM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:03 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
As I said, I would NOT record any of the cateogories Bruce mentioned, all of which are non-member messages, and that includes spam.
I feel that an +owner message received from someone who never subscribed is nearly as valuable as a rejected message from someone who is. Although I remain hesitant to go down this road, but if we're going to do it I'd like to see that recorded in the log too (and yes, I know it's been suggested before).

Regards,
Bruce

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

We receive sometimes dozens of non-member messages daily.  I would not want them in the Log.  I might accept having them sent to me by email (but I would probably opt-out of receiving them, after the first week or two).

To me, if a message exceeds 2 lines -- no, make that 1 line -- I wouldn't want it in the Log.

Mind you, I am fairly opinionated about this.  I guess you can tell.

Yes, I am objecting to those hard-won Owner messages sent to members.  Clearly you want them.  Clearly, I don't.  IMO, the Log file is not the place to put them.

Andy


Bruce Bowman
 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:03 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
As I said, I would NOT record any of the cateogories Bruce mentioned, all of which are non-member messages, and that includes spam.
I feel that an +owner message received from someone who never subscribed is nearly as valuable as a rejected message from someone who is. Although I remain hesitant to go down this road, but if we're going to do it I'd like to see that recorded in the log too (and yes, I know it's been suggested before).

Regards,
Bruce


 

Chris, yes, the rejection notice (if sent) says “the message is included below.” and is in an attachment. This still requires sorting thru emails, often long past the days of the emsils, to locate.


On Aug 12, 2021, at 7:07 AM, Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 02:51 PM, Andy wrote:
For me, I think that "something else" might be an optional email sent to the Moderators, with the contents of the rejected message.  Then I can read it and delete it.
Does the Bcc Moderators function of a Rejection Notice not provide that capability? OK it might require "other mods" to read the original message from their Inboxes but is that a hardship?

Chris

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 02:51 PM, Andy wrote:
For me, I think that "something else" might be an optional email sent to the Moderators, with the contents of the rejected message.  Then I can read it and delete it.
Does the Bcc Moderators function of a Rejection Notice not provide that capability? OK it might require "other mods" to read the original message from their Inboxes but is that a hardship?

Chris


 

To clarify: I am suggesting recording only messages that were rejected by moderators (i.e., becaus of problematic content). I would not record any messages rejected by the system, including spam, non-member messages of any kind (if the group blocks those), too large, etc.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 07:01 AM, Andy wrote:
If a typical spam message is 3 screenfuls of junk or ads, do you want all of that saved in the permanent Log?
As I said, I would NOT record any of the cateogories Bruce mentioned, all of which are non-member messages, and that includes spam. (Maybe you didn't read past my unfortunate typo?;)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

re: "How about logging it only if the reason for the rejection wasn't the size?"

Where do you draw the line?

If a typical spam message is 3 screenfuls of junk or ads, do you want all of that saved in the permanent Log?  If your group gets, say, 25 of those messages daily, do you really want it cluttering up the Log?

Andy


 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 06:51 AM, Andy wrote:
"something else" might be an optional email sent to the Moderators,
That's the current problem: they are currently available in emails only (in the "pending message needing approval" notification or in the rejection notice if bcc'd to moderators). And that's very difficult to sort through, especially in the situation I'm talking about, namely, trying to assess at some later point what's been going on. You have to sort through emails.

"Something that has a lifetime of, say, 1 week, and then self-destructs?"
This, too, is the opposite of what I'm looking for.

On a side note, re your comment about the activity log containing messages, does it now do that? Or are you talking about mod messages to members, and hard-won battle to get included? I would not object to mod messages to members, rejection notices, invite notices (which can also be long), as well as the content I'm asking for here, being recorded in a separate place.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 06:50 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
"Obviously you would record spam,"
Sorry, big typo there - should read "you would NOT record"
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

Thinking about this a bit more --

Personally I find the Activity Log best when it is just a nutshell of what happened, in the most concise form.  I wouldn't want it to show me all the details.  As it is, I am annoyed when it has the contents of any message.  To me, that is just clutter.

Maybe there is something else (not the permanent Activity Log) that would serve that purpose better.  Something that has a lifetime of, say, 1 week, and then self-destructs?

For me, I think that "something else" might be an optional email sent to the Moderators, with the contents of the rejected message.  Then I can read it and delete it.

Andy


 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 06:36 AM, Andy wrote:
A message might be rejected because it is too large
That's a great point. But I would like to be able to see the whole thing. Sometimes the "whoppers" in these rejected messages come at the end. How about logging it only if the reason for the rejection wasn't the size?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 06:35 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
seems like a slippery slope,
I understand that concern and was expecting that comment. I thought about it myself. We don't, for example, log deleted messages. I do think that rejected messages are especially important to be able to see and be able to keep track of. It's true that i can know how many of an individual member's messages were rejected, and I can now see the actual rejection notices (which is a big improvement). But I can't actually see the problematic content, and sometimes, there's no rejection notice sent.

Obviously you would record spam, non-member messages (to owners OR to the group), and messages from banned members (which fall into that same category). Essentially you are arguing that rejected messages from bona fide members are on a par (or on a slippery slope) with non-member messages - that includes all of the categories you mentioned: spam, non-member messages to group, non-member messages to owner, and messages from banned members.
I think that rejected messages - the only category aside from your mentioned ones that consists ot messages *from bona fide froup members* - are categorically different.

If, say, I find myself rejected yet one more message from a member who I'm beginning to feel is problematic, and I'm beginning to wonder whether that member should be warned or removed, I would like to be able to assess that feeling more accurately. Currently, it is very cumbersome to do so.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy
 

Hmm.  This could be problematic.  A message might be rejected because it is too large - Megabytes.  Obviously you don't want all of that saved to the log.  Maybe just the first line or two?

Andy