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moderated Database feature request


Linda Standart
 

I have a group that uses databases for several things . Member sign ups, Member address and phone book information,  Members are usually listed in alphabetic order.
So when I have to modify a database to add someone in the middle of the alphabet, I have to revamp the whole list below that person. It would be very helpful if I could insert a new row instead of having to completely revamp the database when I have to add a new person to the list.
Is that a possibility? Would anyone else find this ability useful?
Linda


Jujube <ellaxyu@...>
 

I think this is a great idea. I don't think it would be too hard to implement.

On 1/19/18, Linda Standart via Groups.Io
<standartlinda=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I have a group that uses databases for several things . Member sign ups,
Member address and phone book information,  Members are usually listed in
alphabetic order.
So when I have to modify a database to add someone in the middle of the
alphabet, I have to revamp the whole list below that person. It would be
very helpful if I could insert a new row instead of having to completely
revamp the database when I have to add a new person to the list.
Is that a possibility? Would anyone else find this ability useful?
Linda


Duane
 

If you have a column for first name and a column for last name (or whatever criteria you wish to sort on), you can click on the column header to sort accordingly. Unfortunately, at present, the sort you've chosen isn't remembered, so you have to click it each time you go to the database. Might be easier than adding an insert function.

Duane


Linda Standart
 

Nice idea Duane, but that would not work for the databases we use in my forum.
  • The data bases are accessed frequently enough to make having to sort every time a real  irritant
  • The information in the secondary columns (next to the names) needs to remain tied to the names. 
Thanks for the thought, though
Linda


Jean Bennett
 

Linda,

I think this is a great idea. It would also be wonderful if, at the same time, we could either eliminate the ID numbers or have the numbers automatically reorder when a row is deleted.

Jean

#OrlandoStrong


Duane
 

Linda,
The sorting would take one extra click each time the database is opened. All adjacent columns are tied to a particular record, so nothing would be scrambled. All column headers can be used as a sort preference, too. You can also hide a column (except ID) by selecting it at the bottom of the table. There are revisions planned and they include remembering sort order, https://trello.com/c/yPvAZ4an/238-per-user-default-database-sort, so there would be no need for the insert function.

Jean,
If I remember right, the ID numbers were removed at one time, but replaced because of concerns. I don't think reordering is on tap as that could cause problems for some people. Having a button to 'compact' the database might be possible (and handy) though.

I use tables for various things, including a phone book type setup, and haven't found a need for any changes, other than remembering sort order.

Duane


Linda Standart
 

Duane, 
I guess it's  a matter of 'you can't please everyone'.
Being able to insert a row, or even a column just as you can in EXCEL, would be a huge help. Not all of us use databases for the same purposes. I'm not sure I understand why being able to insert a row would be a huge problem for anyone. It's not something you have to do unless you have a specific need
Re-sorting the rows just doesn't  meet the needs in my group's situation
I am also a member of Jean's group and i know that sorting for many of the databases there would not  be of much help. 

As it is, for the affected databases I have to create whole new ones to meet the purpose 
If it were possible to share an EXCEL database within the group I would do that rather than deal with the problems in our current set up. Inserting rows and columns without an effect on the actual data is really easy
 I'm glad that the current set-up meets your needs. Thanks for your input. 
Linda



Toby Kraft
 

Perhaps this would be more to your liking -> https://www.smartsheet.com/
Put a link to your shared sheet on a wiki page in groups.io.

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Linda Standart via Groups.Io <standartlinda@...> wrote:

Duane, 
I guess it's  a matter of 'you can't please everyone'.
Being able to insert a row, or even a column just as you can in EXCEL, would be a huge help. Not all of us use databases for the same purposes. I'm not sure I understand why being able to insert a row would be a huge problem for anyone. It's not something you have to do unless you have a specific need
Re-sorting the rows just doesn't  meet the needs in my group's situation
I am also a member of Jean's group and i know that sorting for many of the databases there would not  be of much help. 

As it is, for the affected databases I have to create whole new ones to meet the purpose 
If it were possible to share an EXCEL database within the group I would do that rather than deal with the problems in our current set up. Inserting rows and columns without an effect on the actual data is really easy
 I'm glad that the current set-up meets your needs. Thanks for your input. 
Linda




toki
 

On 01/21/2018 02:50 PM, Linda Standart via Groups.Io wrote:

I guess it's  a matter of 'you can't please everyone'.
Especially when the user doesn't want to learn how to use the database.

I'm not sure I understand why being able to insert a row would be a huge problem for anyone.
For starters, it breaks literally every rule of database design, and
more importantly, database usage.

I realize that 0.0000001% of users even know that such a thing as "good
database practices" exists, much less how to avail themselves of it.
That doesn't mean that a database should be designed to break the first
time it is used.

Re-sorting the rows just doesn't meet the needs in my group's situation
In which case you are using the wrong tool for the wrong purpose to
achieve the wrong result.

If it were possible to share an EXCEL database within the group I would
Excel is not a database program, which is why using it as such
guarantees data destruction.

jonathon


Secretary <secretary@...>
 

Or, even simpler, a shared Google sheet - which has loads of Excel's functions and is free - with a link in your Wiki area.

On 21/01/18 15:09, Toby Kraft wrote:
Perhaps this would be more to your liking -> https://www.smartsheet.com/
Put a link to your shared sheet on a wiki page in groups.io.

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Linda Standart via Groups.Io <standartlinda@...> wrote:

Duane, 
I guess it's  a matter of 'you can't please everyone'.
Being able to insert a row, or even a column just as you can in EXCEL, would be a huge help. Not all of us use databases for the same purposes. I'm not sure I understand why being able to insert a row would be a huge problem for anyone. It's not something you have to do unless you have a specific need
Re-sorting the rows just doesn't  meet the needs in my group's situation
I am also a member of Jean's group and i know that sorting for many of the databases there would not  be of much help. 

As it is, for the affected databases I have to create whole new ones to meet the purpose 
If it were possible to share an EXCEL database within the group I would do that rather than deal with the problems in our current set up. Inserting rows and columns without an effect on the actual data is really easy
 I'm glad that the current set-up meets your needs. Thanks for your input. 
Linda





Duane
 

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 06:50 am, Linda Standart wrote:


Re-sorting the rows just doesn't  meet the needs in my group's situation
I can't think of a situation for data where sorting wouldn't give the expected results (unless you need to sort on more than one column, which isn't offered yet.) If you could give us an example, maybe that would help. If you prefer, we could continue this offline or over on https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum to reduce the clutter here.

Duane


 

Linda,

Being able to insert a row, ... would be a huge help.
Probably not as much as you think. One click on a column heading and now the rows are re-sorted into different positions. Once the database view is improved to remember one's current sort the default sort on the ID column will become much less relevant.

or even a column just as you can in EXCEL,
That you can do. Edit the table and use the Add Column button. Use the up and down arrows to re-order the columns as suits you.

I'm not sure I understand why being able to insert a row would be a
huge problem for anyone.
Your concept of "inserting" a row is tied to the ordering of the ID column.

That column holds the purpose of retaining the order in which the rows were added. It is a serial number for rows. As things stand you can use it to refer to specific content in a table. That is, in a message you can tell someone that the info they seek is in ID 26 of the table, and that statement will still be true later.

What you're asking is a little like asking for the ability to "insert" a new message post between two existing message numbers because you want it to appear in a different spot in the message list. It would break the connection between a row's ID and its content, for all the rows below the point of insert.

Re-sorting the rows just doesn't meet the needs in my group's
situation
That just means that your table lacks a column with the correct information, the info that determines the order you wish shown. Add such a column and sort by it. Now you're good.

Shal


Linda Standart
 

Tony, Nice idea and thanks for the suggestion.. However, that does not meet the needs for which we use databases. I don't have a baseline of computer savvy members so sending them offsite would create more problems than that would solve. 
I do appreciate your attempt to help
Linda


Linda Standart
 

Every reference I have ever accessed to look for simple and easy to use databases lists EXCEL as a database. I have been using it as such with great success. It is one of those programs that can be as easy or as complicated as you want to make it. My database uses are quite straightforward. So it works for me
I have considered getting ACCESS, which probably meets your definition and criteria for a database program but I don't see the advantage to paying for another program when i have one that works quite well.

Linda


Carol Shenkenberger <cshenk1@...>
 

Hi Linda, I am so new, I don't see how to quote yet! 

So, old fashioned way (grin)

You said-
>Every reference I have ever accessed to look for simple and easy to use databases lists EXCEL as a database. I have been using it as such with great success. It is one of those >programs that can be as easy or as complicated as you want to make it. My database uses are quite straightforward. So it works for me
>I have considered getting ACCESS, which probably meets your definition and criteria for a database program but I don't see the advantage to paying for another program when i >have one that works quite well.

The difference is the complexity you need.  Excel is basically a 'single database' with some limited ability to tie sheets together (including from more than one file if you are careful in where they area).  Access is often overkill for most peoples needs because they really just need something like a shopping list or a phone recall for customers and such.

Now lets say however you have all your data on your customers in one 'database' and all your sales records per customer and what the ordered in another one, and need a list of which customers ordered 8,000$ or above in a specific time period?  Maybe you just want a specific item that fits that?  Thats easier setup in MS access. It can easily handle some 5 data files and tie them together.  When you get to what I was working with which was millions of rows of data across over 700 tables (files here for you), you can't do that with MS Access.  Oracle is one of the more popular softwares to drive that level.

This is groups.io.  I'd be surprised if we needed more than the ability of excel level for the average customer. They may in the background have a more powerful SQL engine for their own needs but there is no reason for us to access it and if you don't know exactly what you are doing, a user could crash the whole site with a single 'query mis-built'.

New here so not sure if that info helps what is being asked, but it's offered as something you may have wanted to know.

Carol
Former SQL programmer and data analyst, now in a new job


 

Carol,

This is groups.io. ... They may in the background have a more powerful
SQL engine for their own needs but there is no reason for us to access
it ...
And very good reasons for Groups.io to prevent us from accessing it.

and if you don't know exactly what you are doing, a user could crash
the whole site with a single 'query mis-built'.
I'm reminded of little Bobby Tables. Perhaps you've heard of him:
https://xkcd.com/327/

Shal


Carol Shenkenberger <cshenk1@...>
 

Hehehe Bobby Tables, that's mean!  There's a reason to not name a table CAT also


On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 10:56 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
Carol,

> This is groups.io. ... They may in the background have a more powerful
> SQL engine for their own needs but there is no reason for us to access
> it ...

And very good reasons for Groups.io to prevent us from accessing it.

> and if you don't know exactly what you are doing, a user could crash
> the whole site with a single 'query mis-built'.

I'm reminded of little Bobby Tables. Perhaps you've heard of him:
https://xkcd.com/327/

Shal


Alan Winson
 

Even the Yahoo group that we moved here allowed you to insert a row into a database.  It's the one thing I can think of that Yahoo did better than groups.io

The argument about database design is irrelevant.  Programs should conform to what users specify, not the other way around.  I'm sure there is nothing about database design that says inserting a row is bad design.  If the implementation chosen by a programmer does not allow the program to meet the requirements, then the fault is not with the requirements.

All the comments about ways to circumvent this shortcoming are of no help for certain databases, including mine.  If groups.io remembered the sort order, we could insert a column used only for sorting the rows and hide that column after we are done sorting.  But the sort order is not remembered, is it?

It is apparent, more than two years after the last comment I can find on this, that groups.io is not going to implement row insertion.  So when I need to insert a row, I export my groups.io database to my computer, update the exported file however I please, and then back on groups.io I delete all the rows and then import the file from my computer.  I am not impressed.  I don't need to do it often, but it's not a good circumvention for someone who needs to insert rows frequently.

However, I love everything else I've found so far about groups.io.