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moderated Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion


 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 10:20 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I think it would be best if they had nothing unless they have 'Set Moderator Privileges'.
After "further consideration" (aka sleeping on it;) I now agree with you that this is the best compromise. So something does need to be fixed here, as you outlined: make the Subscription page for a Mod match their own Member page in the sense that they see the notification options panel if and only if they have Set Moderator Privileges set.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

You’re right that there’s no exact matchup but there is for some of them. However, I don’t think having Set Moderator Privileges unset should deprive a mod of the ability to select which notifications they receive. It seems unconnected. Plus, I could swear that Mark said he’d implemented my suggestion. I need to hunt for the thread. It’s really hard because the whole notifications update thread got ridiculously long and twisted...


On Jan 3, 2021, at 10:20 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 02:28 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
The mod needs access, at least in part, to their OWN notification options.
Part of the issue here is that there does not appear to be a direct correlation between the Mod Privileges and the Notifications.  Part of the logic I think you are requesting is in place as if the Approve Pending Message permission is set then the Pending Messages option appears in the Mod Notifications panel (and is removed if the permission is unchecked).  Which notifications would apply though for permission Manage Subgroups (for example) or even Modify Group Settings?

While I can understand the approach you are suggesting, until there is a clear option for an owner to give a Mod the ability to receive certain notifications I think it would be best if they had nothing unless they have 'Set Moderator Privileges'.

Regards
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy Wedge
 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 02:28 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
The mod needs access, at least in part, to their OWN notification options.
Part of the issue here is that there does not appear to be a direct correlation between the Mod Privileges and the Notifications.  Part of the logic I think you are requesting is in place as if the Approve Pending Message permission is set then the Pending Messages option appears in the Mod Notifications panel (and is removed if the permission is unchecked).  Which notifications would apply though for permission Manage Subgroups (for example) or even Modify Group Settings?

While I can understand the approach you are suggesting, until there is a clear option for an owner to give a Mod the ability to receive certain notifications I think it would be best if they had nothing unless they have 'Set Moderator Privileges'.

Regards
Andy


 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 06:28 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
And you/Chris
should read "and you (Andy) and Chris"
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

YES! (And no;). Yes, I have been talking about the mod's own SUBSCRIPTION page! And you/Chris had been looking at the mod's page in the MEMBERS list. That's brilliant detective work. Yes, it's a bug. But the fix you describe would IMO make things much worse. The mod needs access, at least in part, to their OWN notification options. The problem is that they currently have 100%, no matter what their settings. The fix you describe would give them either 100% or 0%. That's wrong, too.

I draw a distinction between setting one's own notification on the one hand, which is the thing I've noticed is off-base,  and setting other people's notifications, on the other. The mod should have access to notification X if and only if THEY themself have the corresponding permission X - e.g., they should be able to select getting pending message notifications if and only if they have message approval permission. They should be able to set OTHER MEMBERS' notifications only if they have "set moderator privileges" permission. The "set moderator privileges" permission should have nothing to do with their OWN notification options. That's too draconian if turned off based on that variable, and too lax if turned on based on it.

So the member page is behaving correctly. But the mod's own subscription page is not behaving correctly, but not in the way you describe. The request/suggestion (or bug, since as I said, I thought Mark had implemented this already) is that the Subscription page should allow access to the specific subset of notifications for which the mod has corresponding permissions. Currently, all notification options are available to them no matter what, I agree with you there. But the fix is not to turn the whole panel on or off, zero-one, depending on "set moderator privileges" being on or off, as in the Members page. That shold apply to OTHER members, not the mod themselves. The fix is to make the available notifications correspond to the mod's own permissions.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy Wedge
 

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 05:22 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I just went through the whole sequence again, with the same results.
OK - I can reproduce what you are seeing and I think this is a #bug.  Any permission that gives a Mod access to view the member list can be used to demonstrate this as it gives a Mod two places to look at their details. If a Mod views their own details via the Subscription page then the Moderator Notifications panel is always visible.  If they view their own details via Admin > Members then the Moderator Notifications panel is only displayed if  'Set Moderator Privileges' is checked (along with the Moderator Permissions panel as could be expected).

So, I think the bug is that the Moderator Notifications panel is displayed in the Subscription settings for a Mod when it should only be displayed via Admin > Members if they have been granted
'Set Moderator Privileges'.

Cheers
Andy


 

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 09:01 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
I removed my second membership's Set Moderator Privileges, .... The list of checkboxes had vanished, as had the ability to select Moderator Notifications. I then reversed the process and lo! my list of selectable notifications had reappeared.
I would say again, as before, that if this is happening, it's a distinct and even weirder bug. Toggling "set moderator privileges" on and off should have no effect on the mod's abiltiy to select relevant notifications. Turning it off should not wipe them all out. In any case, I am not seeing this at all, for some reason.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

It means I haven't checked any of their privilege boxes. It's a test case. 
It does not make them a (non-mod) member. They have a subscription and member page in the moderator template.

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 9:24 AM billsf9c via groups.io <OOWONBS=Netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:
which is a mod in my test group but with no privileges....

What am I missing?!?
A MOD with No Priveleges...
Cannot Moderate.

They would be as a Member.

BillSF9c


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


billsf9c
 

which is a mod in my test group but with no privileges....

What am I missing?!?
A MOD with No Priveleges...
Cannot Moderate.

They would be as a Member.

BillSF9c


 

I just went through the whole sequence again, with the same results. I can't drink any more coffee or I'll be on the ceiling. (Have switched to tea;). I'll leave it to Mark and/or others to sort this out.

Bottom line: I have a non-owner moderator in my test group with no permissions who has the complete panel of notification options available in their subscription page. Toggling this mod back and forth between set-moderator-privileges on and off has no effect. The complete notification panel is available no matter what.

I'll leave it at that for now. I am concerned about this from a practical point of view because, as I said originally, I just promoted someone to moderator status in my group and I am concerned about her having the abiity to elect to see notifications she should not. So unlike in some cases where I comment in beta, it's not just an intellectual curiosity.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Chris,
Thanks for the sanity (or insanity?) check. This is really weird. I've done it about five times now, not trusting myself, but will do it again. Pretty sure I'm saving because I log out and back in each time.


On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 9:01 AM Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 04:43 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
If you, Andy, are doing the same sequence and seeing something different, maybe I just need another cup of coffee.
I have done similar tests and would support Andy's point. I have two memberships of someone else's test group, where as a general rule everyone has moderator status. Using my "main" membership I removed my second membership's Set Moderator Privileges, leaving other checked boxes unchanged. I then logged out, and logged back in using my second membership. The list of checkboxes had vanished, as had the ability to select Moderator Notifications. I then reversed the process and lo! my list of selectable notifications had reappeared.

One thought; when you changed the permissions did you remember to Save the change? I ask because I nearly forgot...

Chris


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Chris Jones
 

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 04:43 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
If you, Andy, are doing the same sequence and seeing something different, maybe I just need another cup of coffee.
I have done similar tests and would support Andy's point. I have two memberships of someone else's test group, where as a general rule everyone has moderator status. Using my "main" membership I removed my second membership's Set Moderator Privileges, leaving other checked boxes unchanged. I then logged out, and logged back in using my second membership. The list of checkboxes had vanished, as had the ability to select Moderator Notifications. I then reversed the process and lo! my list of selectable notifications had reappeared.

One thought; when you changed the permissions did you remember to Save the change? I ask because I nearly forgot...

Chris


 

I do see the effect you note, Andy, in regards to the moderator permissions panel, which is as it should be - you should see the moderator permissions panel if and only if you have "set moderator privileges" permission. But it does not happen in my tests with the moderator notifications panel, which also is as it should be.

So maybe we are talking about two different things. I am reporting that the moderator notifications panel in the mod's own subscription page is not filtered according to the actual permissions that the moderator has, and I am requesting that it be filtered.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 08:43 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
and look at the member page.
more accurately: and look at the subscription page
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

I tested this again - caffeinated - and am still seeing exactly what I reported before:

1. I gave my test mod zero permissions - none - in my test group (including no "set moderator privileges").
2. I log in as the test mod and go to that same group and look at the member page. The complete notification panel is there and all notifications are available for selection.

So I am still reporting this as a bug, only because I thought Mark had said the filtering had been implemented before - I could be misremembering - and/or suggestion.

If you, Andy, are doing the same sequence and seeing something different, maybe I just need another cup of coffee. Are you sure you're going to the same group pre- and post-logging in as the non-owner mod?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

I totally get what you’re saying you’re seeing, but I have a mod with zero privileges - none - who still sees the panel when logged in. Which was why I said “any subset.” I’ll double check, as I said. I may not be fully caffeinated yet...


On Jan 2, 2021, at 6:52 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 02:42 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
ps I have to say, what you saw also sounds like not what we want or would expect.
That maybe the case. However your original assertion was that "Any mod, with any subset of permissions (including the null set), can elect to receive notifications for anything: pending members, pending messages, etc" and that is not the case as I see it because if they don't have 'Set Moderator Privileges' they cannot change the notifications they receive as they don't see the panel where those options can be set.

Regards
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy Wedge
 

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 02:42 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
ps I have to say, what you saw also sounds like not what we want or would expect.
That maybe the case. However your original assertion was that "Any mod, with any subset of permissions (including the null set), can elect to receive notifications for anything: pending members, pending messages, etc" and that is not the case as I see it because if they don't have 'Set Moderator Privileges' they cannot change the notifications they receive as they don't see the panel where those options can be set.

Regards
Andy


 

(typo - “set moderator privileges,” not “set moderator options”)


On Jan 2, 2021, at 6:42 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

ps I have to say, what you saw also sounds like not what we want or would expect. We would expect notifications to be available corresponding to privileges, regardless of “set moderator privikeges” - e.g., mod with “approve pending member” privileges can opt to receive pending member notifications, mod with “approved pending message” messages analogous, etc. I don’t see what “set moderator options” has, it should have, anything to do with this.??? So I am perplexed. In any case I’ll run my tests again. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 6:34 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Ok, thsnks, that’s weird. I’ll do it again and see what happens. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 2:53 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

Hi J,

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 10:35 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
So Andy, how did you test this and find that notifications are available only if "set moderator privileges" is set? Because I'm seeing otherwise.
From my Owner account, I removed 'Set Moderator Privileges' from my Mod account. I then logged in with my Mod account and the Moderator Notifications panel was no longer accessible/visible in the membership record.  From my Owner account, I checked 'Set Moderator Privileges' again and the Moderator Notifications panel was then visible/accessible again from my Mod account membership record,

Regards
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

ps I have to say, what you saw also sounds like not what we want or would expect. We would expect notifications to be available corresponding to privileges, regardless of “set moderator privikeges” - e.g., mod with “approve pending member” privileges can opt to receive pending member notifications, mod with “approved pending message” messages analogous, etc. I don’t see what “set moderator options” has, it should have, anything to do with this.??? So I am perplexed. In any case I’ll run my tests again. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 6:34 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Ok, thsnks, that’s weird. I’ll do it again and see what happens. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 2:53 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

Hi J,

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 10:35 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
So Andy, how did you test this and find that notifications are available only if "set moderator privileges" is set? Because I'm seeing otherwise.
From my Owner account, I removed 'Set Moderator Privileges' from my Mod account. I then logged in with my Mod account and the Moderator Notifications panel was no longer accessible/visible in the membership record.  From my Owner account, I checked 'Set Moderator Privileges' again and the Moderator Notifications panel was then visible/accessible again from my Mod account membership record,

Regards
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Ok, thsnks, that’s weird. I’ll do it again and see what happens. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 2:53 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

Hi J,

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 10:35 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
So Andy, how did you test this and find that notifications are available only if "set moderator privileges" is set? Because I'm seeing otherwise.
From my Owner account, I removed 'Set Moderator Privileges' from my Mod account. I then logged in with my Mod account and the Moderator Notifications panel was no longer accessible/visible in the membership record.  From my Owner account, I checked 'Set Moderator Privileges' again and the Moderator Notifications panel was then visible/accessible again from my Mod account membership record,

Regards
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu