moderated Free to Premium Expanse #suggestion


Sandi D <sandi.asgtechie@...>
 

Diito that. Services have been dropped by more companies than I care to count. And if not dropped, I have seen them transition over into something different. All I can do is evaluate those currently in business and make decisions based on available information. My groups weren't any of those bailing from Yahoo. I came to GIO well before. I have no qualms about moving or disbanding "my" 2 mailing list groups from Google Workgroups should it no longer serve our needs.

I will agree that Mark's ear is alert to those offering input. It has been challenging for me to keep abreast of all the changes to GIO. I am not saying it's bad, but it does keep me busy reading, clarifying, implementating and informing my group members of what gets rolled out! 
--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group


M K Ramadoss
 

Google has a history of dropping their products.
Let's be ready for a surprise.
GIO if on sound financial footing, is likely to last. My 0.02

MKR

Virus-free. www.avg.com


On Sat, Oct 24, 2020 at 9:22 AM Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
On Sat, Oct 24, 2020 at 07:29 AM, Peter Cook wrote:
I wouldn't assume that the same won't happen to Google groups
Or Groups.io for that matter.  The only constant in life is change.

Duane


Duane
 

On Sat, Oct 24, 2020 at 07:29 AM, Peter Cook wrote:
I wouldn't assume that the same won't happen to Google groups
Or Groups.io for that matter.  The only constant in life is change.

Duane


Peter Cook
 

On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 07:43 AM, Sandi D wrote:
Google groups is a known service, it's stable and it's free
Just my $.02 - Years ago we all thought that about Yahoo groups. Google has ended or reduced support for services in the past, so I wouldn't assume that the same won't happen to Google groups.

Pete


RCardona
 

My hobby group has zero income as well, but we passed the donation hat around and got about 15% of our membership to throw in a couple of bucks each.  They were thrilled to express their appreciation with small donations.  With one donation drive, we actually raised enough for 2 1/2 year of premium membership.  If a membership values the group, there will likely be sufficient donations to cover nominal costs, but leadership needs to make the effort to make something like that happen.  It really doesn't take that much effort to accomplish.  Nonprofits at G-Suite/Workspace may not pay membership costs, but someone is paying for the services and storage. . . whether its from ad space revenue or collections from other paying groups.  In the end, free services tend to go away. . . user beware.

My group really appreciated being able to save our 10+ year history at Yahoo Groups by transitioning to GIO and then utilizing the unique features provided here with GIO premium.  The capacity for storage organization is a HUGE plus for us.  But as you remarked, each group is unique with different needs.  I don't believe Mark is looking for number of groups, but those who want to support his work in building GIO up further.  He certainly provides developer access and input unlike anywhere else and has developed quite a loyal following because of it. 

RCardona

 

On 10/23/20 5:51 PM, Sandi D wrote:
A domain administered free Google Groups has a place in this discussion which billsf9c initiated by comparing the features of a free GIO group to other free groups and forums. I have free GIO groups which, as of now, are grandfathered in but I cannot direct add members.

You are absolutely correct that you get what you pay for. Not all of us have the budget for "the best". (I put GIO Premium in that category.) Some of us need to settle for what we can afford based on a comparison of services that offer the features we need. 


Sandi D <sandi.asgtechie@...>
 

I have seen posts from other low revenue 501(3)c NPs that like ours cannot sustain the GIO fees being charged for the file storage needed and the ability to directly add and manage our members. 

I have been with Gmail since 2006 and to date, my privacy has not been invaded. I have enabled the privacy settings that I desire and to date they have "worked". In fact, I much prefer my Gmail accounts to every other email account I have created since 1989. I would hazard to guess I have tried out close to 50 of them, most no longer in business.

Google Workspace administers our domain email accounts at no cost to us. Our domain Google accounts do not receive spam. Our non published forum email address has never had even one outside inquiry. It has remained private. Our published forum email address has received spam and it's been caught every time by Google and not been delivered to our members. It is held in a que for me to approve or reject. 

In my opinion Google is not taking over the world. As you said, the anti trust suit is being filed. It may well be justified and result in them abiding by the terms of the judgement. That doesn't make them evil or good. It's simply a factor of how they will need to operate as a business. It's not like they are the first or the only company facing an anti trust action. 

A domain administered free Google Groups has a place in this discussion which billsf9c initiated by comparing the features of a free GIO group to other free groups and forums. I have free GIO groups which, as of now, are grandfathered in but I cannot direct add members.

You are absolutely correct that you get what you pay for. Not all of us have the budget for "the best". (I put GIO Premium in that category.) Some of us need to settle for what we can afford based on a comparison of services that offer the features we need. 

--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.


 

On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 04:43 AM, Sandi D wrote:
Google groups is a known service, it's stable and it's free.
I think you get what you pay for. There's a reason some of these services are "free." In google's case, I don't know the underlying mechanisms but google is trying to take over the world - witness the justified antitrust lawsuit against them - and your privacy is a total black box.

 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Sandi D <sandi.asgtechie@...>
 

I have had 2 Google groups (under a GSuite/non profit) since 2013. I can direct add and remove members. It's an excellent mailing list and offers expansive storage for our attachments to emails. One group is used for our Board of Directors and one is for collecting and distributing publishable news items as attachments. 

Their spam filter doesn't disappoint and the group is painless to manage. Users within our group have no need to create or maintain a password. I can add users by their cell phones and email addresses which need not end in @gmail or be associated with a Google account. 

The current free version of GIO would not tempt me to move from Goodle Groups because of storage limitations, the uncertainty of future GIO pricing tiers and loss of features. Google groups is a known service, it's stable and it's free. 

I agree heartily that Google Groups is not for everyone, nor will it serve the needs of most or many. But it does have a place for us as an educational non profit with minimal revenue where we need control over members in a forum. It works quite well nested within our domain managed GSuite/Google Works framework. 

It's far from perfect but it is free and for the above reasons, I would not advise it should never be considered.

--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.


billsf9c
 

The "15 Gigs" number came from a.googlw member. I understand now, that he may be in error... but if that is his perception, it may be also for many. So I'm not a journalist and didn't go undercover to confirm. If 15 is the personal amount, and goggle lists have no limit, then I don't see what to write on the billboard.

I was fine with 110$. Our otherwise intelligent membership tarried and we got hit with 220... spilled milk.

When folks have suffered with bad service for so long, many forget how NICE it was when eGroups had features and they worked well. Many of us easily ignored the ads, so here, I don't even notice them missing. And many know and notice nothing of googles' privacy shattering, and cannot comprehend it if explained.

But I sure want a way to entice a couple groups over. And after 18 years, I'll dislike in 4 years cleaning house because the next.jump is not a small amount but 19x more than what took us 20 years to accumulate.

As text here is not counted against us, maybe I can make the case that memory is unlimited, with an additional Gig for Photos and attachments.

Thanks for the time everyone has spent on this issue. Now and then I help a small mechanics business. You want the Edsel. 😏🤣
BillSF9c


Vacek Miglus
 


On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:20 PM Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 11:27 AM billsf9c via groups.io <OOWONBS=Netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:
Reading all the support for the thread I began and this time WITH coffee -

It jumps out at me that the void ought be filled to reflect; Free-Basic, $5/mo & $10/mo, $20/mo. Round down if they pay a year in a lump sum.

Yet and STILL, David MUST meet Goliath on the 15 Gigs FREE Battlefield. IT MUST D*A*R*E TO CONTEND...


So you are asking that I bump the storage for the free version to 15 gigs in the hopes of luring a group to come over that, 1) has never paid for service before, and 2) does not see the advantages of Groups.io over Google Groups. Not trying to be rude or anything, just trying to understand.

Also, where does the 15 gigs of storage number come from? I'm unaware of any storage limits with Google Groups.

I think I may be the instigation of this whole conversation. Sorry.
Our group just downgraded from Premium to Free primarily because we are not bumping into the limits of the free group and as much as I appreciate the very easy transfer from Yahoo to GIO I find it hard to justify the on-going Premium bill.

That said I very much want to see GIO thrive in every way including financially. So I lamented to our group about the lack of a middle tier. A bit more storage for 50 or 60 bucks a year (a bottle of decent Scotch) sounded like an interesting compromise. Of course I had not thought it all the way through, like GIO losing Premium members with a middle tier or some of the other things brought up.

Of course I could just write Mark a check and feel good about it but I'm just one small drop in the bucket and it sounds like I'm not the first to think of this.

Of course this whole conversation did get me to subscribe to the beta group.:-)

Vacek


RCardona
 

Yes, comparison is apples and oranges.

Google Groups has no storage assigned to the group.  ZERO.  The only
storage is an individual member’s Google Drive storage capacity of 15 GB
from which one can create shared files, but it is still owned (and can
be deleted) by the individual member.   In order to have a true shared
space for photos, files, documents, etc, one would have to use Google’s
G-Suite/Workspace which charges a monthly fee ranging from $6 to $18 per
month PER user.  With Groups.io one can organize shared photos and files
in true group storage sections within folders.  True value!

RCardona

On 10/21/20 3:01 PM, billsf9c via groups.io wrote:
I'm saying that I LOVE and UNDERSTAND, but I am losing membership in a
couple valuable groups as they are short sighted.

Like my members who don't see trends in the industry, they would not
allow me to migrate to IO when it was free. They would not discuss it
at 110$. Only at the last minute did a few say. "I know & like IO." Or
"I know & hate Google."

The Edsel was [too] ahead if its time. Great car. "Looked wrong."

The masses do not understand that it took 2000 members 15-20 VERY busy
years to reach 3/4 of the Gig they use(d.) 

Does Google include text in their 15 Gigs? Maybe it's just apples and
oranges.?!?!?

Crowds went with Goliath.
David's people thought he was a nut for "~15 minutes."
Animals, insects, and other people and businesses stand tall and raise
arms and fluff up fur to appear large. That's google. They don't dole
out 14 extra Gigs which sit idle for 1-5-20 years. "It's on paper...
there when you want/need.it".Look hiw banks do money - want your
250,000? They don't actually have it... "Give us 2-3-4 days."

Find a loophole. Make this Edsel look as grand as their flimsy
fiberglass crap. Tell them 15 Gigs. Allot them 1. Tack on 1.at
900Megs. It's just a façade. It's still better under the car cover.

BillSF9c
Ex SillyCom Valley Dude


 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 11:27 AM billsf9c via groups.io <OOWONBS=Netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:
Reading all the support for the thread I began and this time WITH coffee -

It jumps out at me that the void ought be filled to reflect; Free-Basic, $5/mo & $10/mo, $20/mo. Round down if they pay a year in a lump sum.

Yet and STILL, David MUST meet Goliath on the 15 Gigs FREE Battlefield. IT MUST D*A*R*E TO CONTEND...


So you are asking that I bump the storage for the free version to 15 gigs in the hopes of luring a group to come over that, 1) has never paid for service before, and 2) does not see the advantages of Groups.io over Google Groups. Not trying to be rude or anything, just trying to understand.

Also, where does the 15 gigs of storage number come from? I'm unaware of any storage limits with Google Groups.

With your car analogy, I would go more with Groups.io being a BMW or Mercedes, not an Edsel (ie an upscale offering for people who appreciate the extra features/service/focus of Groups.io over Google).


Thanks,
Mark


billsf9c
 

I'm saying that I LOVE and UNDERSTAND, but I am losing membership in a couple valuable groups as they are short sighted.

Like my members who don't see trends in the industry, they would not allow me to migrate to IO when it was free. They would not discuss it at 110$. Only at the last minute did a few say. "I know & like IO." Or "I know & hate Google."

The Edsel was [too] ahead if its time. Great car. "Looked wrong."

The masses do not understand that it took 2000 members 15-20 VERY busy years to reach 3/4 of the Gig they use(d.) 

Does Google include text in their 15 Gigs? Maybe it's just apples and oranges.?!?!?

Crowds went with Goliath.
David's people thought he was a nut for "~15 minutes."
Animals, insects, and other people and businesses stand tall and raise arms and fluff up fur to appear large. That's google. They don't dole out 14 extra Gigs which sit idle for 1-5-20 years. "It's on paper... there when you want/need.it".Look hiw banks do money - want your 250,000? They don't actually have it... "Give us 2-3-4 days."

Find a loophole. Make this Edsel look as grand as their flimsy fiberglass crap. Tell them 15 Gigs. Allot them 1. Tack on 1.at 900Megs. It's just a façade. It's still better under the car cover.

BillSF9c
Ex SillyCom Valley Dude


billsf9c
 

Reading all the support for the thread I began and this time WITH coffee -

It jumps out at me that the void ought be filled to reflect; Free-Basic, $5/mo & $10/mo, $20/mo. Round down if they pay a year in a lump sum.

Yet and STILL, David MUST meet Goliath on the 15 Gigs FREE Battlefield. IT MUST D*A*R*E TO CONTEND...

...despite the fact that a "busy but typical" 2000 member groups take 10-20 years to fill that. Adding a 2nd Gig to the 1st, 3 to that for 5, 5 to that for 10, and the last 5 when needed, automatically and not 14 more Gigs initially... need not appear or be said, anywhere. They'll have 15 gigs, and will need them around... 2380 by my calculations.

I just hope Green Lantern doesn't mind using IO on our T-Shirts, it being near to his Logo. When do these come out, "David?" [Mark?] Set the sloth down, (What's its' name, again?) Push the choke in. You had a break. It's YahOop's Death's Anniversary. Let's start this party w a BANG! Shoot Goliath right in the foot!

We're rootin' for ya! We're truely in this together...!

Offer the product NOW, available Oct 31st in the fine print.

BillSF9c
Trend Guru


John Wirtz SF
 

Can I concur with the previous comments, seems we all appreciate a good product with support.  That’s got to be worth paying for in all cases even if a small amount.

 

John Wirtz

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Peter Cook
Sent: 21 October 2020 17:06
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Free to Premium Expanse

 

To summarize my take, here's what I think.

 

  • Yes, there is a donut hole.
  • It's about affordability, not price competition.
  • If it were filled, I'd probably move two of my legacy basic groups into it.
  • If I were starting a new group and needed only basic features, I'd probably still go with GIO over Google (and live with the storage limits) - mainly because of the excellent moderator toolset and Mark's commitment to the product.

Pete


Peter Cook
 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 12:06 PM, Peter Cook wrote:
If I were starting a new group and needed only basic features, I'd probably still go with GIO over Google (and live with the storage limits) - mainly because of the excellent moderator toolset and Mark's commitment to the product.
Oh - and because with GIO there's an upgrade path. There isn't one with Google.


Ken Schweizer
 

Mark,

IMO, the $5 per month rate ($60 annually to reduce paperwork/workload) with files and photos and a little or no increase in storage would allow smaller Basic/Free groups to "donate" to help support your efforts easily. A majority of our group lurk, only occasionally replying to a post, but use the files posted in our file section for study. I know I would be happy to pay the $60 per year out on my pocket and not ask for donations.

Thanks for a GREAT platform!
Ken

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." God

-----Original Message-----
From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Donald Hellen
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 5:32 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Free to Premium Expanse #suggestion

Mark . . .

On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:55:12 -0700, "Mark Fletcher"
<markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing for. Are you saying that the
free plan needs to have more storage, so that we'll get more groups (of the
kind that will only use our free plan)? Economically, that may work for a
business model based on advertising, where absolute numbers of
groups/users are most important. But that's not us.

I'm not sure that most of his post explained it well, but I think he
was suggesting a plan between premium and basic. Maybe call it
enhanced (doesn't matter what to call it). Charge perhaps $5/mo for
5GB. Or instead you could make it a 10GB plan for the mid-grade one,
and charge $10. I don't think you need an infinite number of steps
between premium and basic, but I've read many posts elsewhere that
said they'd like to se an "in-between" plan that gives more than basic
but less than premium.

The problem is if you offer such a plan and it turns out it didn't
work out well, do you eliminate the middle tier plan or grandfather
then in and just no longer offer it.

I'm not suggesting an exact price nor how much storage or which
features to offer for how much. The above were just examples.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main




Peter Cook
 

To summarize my take, here's what I think.
 
  • Yes, there is a donut hole.
  • It's about affordability, not price competition.
  • If it were filled, I'd probably move two of my legacy basic groups into it.
  • If I were starting a new group and needed only basic features, I'd probably still go with GIO over Google (and live with the storage limits) - mainly because of the excellent moderator toolset and Mark's commitment to the product.
Pete


John Wirtz SF
 

Regarding the subscription options:

 

I was very pleased to find GIO.  I joined “egroups” in the early 2000s which was free and that worked perfectly.  It then became Yahoo groups and over a period disintegrated. 

After  the way Yahoo sabotaged the groups, I am sceptical of anything that’s free.  So, I am prepared to pay for a good service and plumbed for the level I needed, i.e. premium as it has the facilities I need to manage my group effectively.

I have to agree that $20.00 a month is probably more than I’d wish to pay.

 

So rather than introduce an intermediate subscription do away with the free version and introduce free trials and reduce the cost of the premium with perhaps storage options, the more you want, the more you pay. 

I only intend my members to post messages and perhaps the occasional file so can keep storage to a minimum.  You can also manage your storage by deleting older files.

If you have a free platform, there will be those who never move away from it.

 

But there is on business principle that no one can get away from, to be profitable , you have to make a charge for services.

 

John Wirtz

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of J_Catlady
Sent: 21 October 2020 15:59
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Free to Premium Expanse

 

I also would stay away from google.



On Oct 21, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Peter Cook <peterscottcook@...> wrote:

Regarding the original post:

As a customer I do not see Google groups as a serious competitor to premium GIO. Google is just a better version of the current Yahoo platform with a ton of memory. This isn't a price competition.

Pete


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

I also would stay away from google.


On Oct 21, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Peter Cook <peterscottcook@...> wrote:

Regarding the original post:

As a customer I do not see Google groups as a serious competitor to premium GIO. Google is just a better version of the current Yahoo platform with a ton of memory. This isn't a price competition.

Pete

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu