Topics

moderated Rewrite "From" address to match group address in certain cases when user is running Windows 10 and aol or verizon email #suggestion


 

For users running Windows 10 and using either aol or verizon (=aol) email, and in the setting where a group is set to "Reply to group," a reply via email by clicking "Reply" does not go to the group. It instead goes to the individual member who generated the message, causing a private email exchange that is generally (or can be) unknown by both parties to be private. The message never actually posts to the group, the user probably doesn't realize it, and if the individual who wrote the original message replies to the reply, they, too, are replying privately and are probably, or at minimum can be, completely unaware of that fact.

If, OTOH, such users click "Reply all" from their email, that does not solve the problem. The reply then does go to both the group and the individual (as a cc); however, if the cc'd individual happens to reply from THEIR email by clicking "Reply," their reply does not post to the group (although they probably believe it does) but rather goes privately to the person who replied to their original message, again causing a probably completely unknown private exchange.

Before realizing the specific circumstances of the problem, I started a thread about what I thought was a bug with the "disable other reply options" setting. Eventually, after I determined that one user involved in this kind of situation was on a PC running Windows 10, I posted that piece of information and Bruce posted the following. I have bolded his actual suggestion:
Currently, in groups.io, the From: address of an individual message is the same as the person who made the post. An account setting could be established to rewrite this From: address to match the group address, but only for those groups that have both "Reply to Group" and "Remove other reply options" set. This is kinda along the lines of the existing "I'm on GMail and always want copies of my own emails" account setting. Although I'm reluctant to recommend the expansion of such account settings, it should work, and is just about all groups.io could do to address this.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/26368

Since he was reluctant to make the suggestion, I am now doing it as a separate suggestion/topic, in case it got lost in the tangle of unrelated messages in the other one. Since then I have also found that the problem does not happen with all users running Win 10, but it specifically does reliably occur for people using aol or verizon. Of course there may be other cases, but it does happen with gmail, for example.

In the meantime, I have instructed all my group members using aol or verizon who are running WIndows 10 never use "Reply" to reply to a group message by email because it will not post to the group, and to either post from the web, or use "Reply all" and then go in and manually delete the cc to the individual, leaving just the group address. I've told the people involved that groups.io may come up with a fix, but meanwhile, that's what they have to do.

Thanks.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Sun, Oct 4, 2020 at 09:05 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
it does happen with gmail
typo - should read "does NOT happen with gmail"
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

I forgot to include this important part of Bruce's reply: "Windows 10 Mail has been reported to fail to honor RFC 5322."
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Drew
 

Forgive me if I have not studied the posts in this thread in detail and have missed something pertinent. I would just like to add the following comment, because it at least refers to a similar situation.

Subscribers using Thunderbird email client software, of which there are many, are presented with two apparent reply options:

- Reply [Reply to the sender of this message];
- Reply All [Reply to the sender and all recipients].

The bracketed descriptions above are what is shown to users when they mouse over the respective buttons.

Unfortunately, both buttons reply directly and only to the group. This can lead to a situation where a user thinks they are replying privately when actually they are responding to the entire group. This has the potential to be a good deal more embarrassing & disruptive than the reverse situation (i.e., when someone who thinks they are replying to the group is actually replying only to the author of the post).

I have suggested implementing an option for group owners who want it, to have the List-Post header included in their group's message traffic, which would restore the option for subscribers to unambiguously reply via email to either the group or the message author. I have no idea if this suggestion is feasible or if it would aid in your particular complaint; it might be something you'd want to investigate.

Drew

On 10/04/20 00:13, J_Catlady wrote:
For users running Windows 10 and using either aol or verizon (=aol) email, and in the setting where a group is set to "Reply to group," a reply via email by clicking "Reply" does not go to the group. It instead goes to the individual member who generated the message, causing a private email exchange that is generally (or can be) unknown by both parties to be private. The message never actually posts to the group, the user probably doesn't realize it, and if the individual who wrote the original message replies to the reply, they, too, are replying privately and are probably, or at minimum can be, completely unaware of that fact.
If, OTOH, such users click "Reply all" from their email, that does not solve the problem. The reply then does go to both the group and the individual (as a cc); however, if the cc'd individual happens to reply from THEIR email by clicking "Reply," their reply does not post to the group (although they probably believe it does) but rather goes privately to the person who replied to their original message, again causing a probably completely unknown private exchange.
Before realizing the specific circumstances of the problem, I started a thread about what I thought was a bug with the "disable other reply options" setting. Eventually, after I determined that one user involved in this kind of situation was on a PC running Windows 10, I posted that piece of information and Bruce posted the following. I have bolded his actual suggestion:
/Currently, in groups.io, the From: address of an individual message
is the same as the person who made the post. *An account setting
could be established to rewrite this From: address to match the
group address, but only for those groups that have both "Reply to
Group" and "Remove other reply options" set.* This is kinda along
the lines of the existing "I'm on GMail and always want copies of my
own emails" account setting. Although I'm reluctant to recommend the
expansion of such account settings, it should work, and is just
about all groups.io could do to address this./
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/26368
Since he was reluctant to make the suggestion, I am now doing it as a separate suggestion/topic, in case it got lost in the tangle of unrelated messages in the other one. Since then I have also found that the problem does not happen with all users running Win 10, but it specifically does reliably occur for people using aol or verizon. Of course there may be other cases, but it does happen with gmail, for example.
In the meantime, I have instructed all my group members using aol or verizon who are running WIndows 10 never use "Reply" to reply to a group message by email because it will not post to the group, and to either post from the web, or use "Reply all" and then go in and manually delete the cc to the individual, leaving just the group address. I've told the people involved that groups.io may come up with a fix, but meanwhile, that's what they have to do.
Thanks.
--
J
/Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones./
/My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu
//
/


 

That could be because you have “Reply to Group” and “Disable Other Reply Options“ set. (?) At least at first glance, it seems to be a separate issue from the one in this thread.

On Oct 4, 2020, at 2:54 PM, Drew <@af2z> wrote:

Forgive me if I have not studied the posts in this thread in detail and have missed something pertinent. I would just like to add the following comment, because it at least refers to a similar situation.

Subscribers using Thunderbird email client software, of which there are many, are presented with two apparent reply options:

- Reply [Reply to the sender of this message];
- Reply All [Reply to the sender and all recipients].

The bracketed descriptions above are what is shown to users when they mouse over the respective buttons.

Unfortunately, both buttons reply directly and only to the group. This can lead to a situation where a user thinks they are replying privately when actually they are responding to the entire group. This has the potential to be a good deal more embarrassing & disruptive than the reverse situation (i.e., when someone who thinks they are replying to the group is actually replying only to the author of the post).

I have suggested implementing an option for group owners who want it, to have the List-Post header included in their group's message traffic, which would restore the option for subscribers to unambiguously reply via email to either the group or the message author. I have no idea if this suggestion is feasible or if it would aid in your particular complaint; it might be something you'd want to investigate.

Drew




On 10/04/20 00:13, J_Catlady wrote:
For users running Windows 10 and using either aol or verizon (=aol) email, and in the setting where a group is set to "Reply to group," a reply via email by clicking "Reply" does not go to the group. It instead goes to the individual member who generated the message, causing a private email exchange that is generally (or can be) unknown by both parties to be private. The message never actually posts to the group, the user probably doesn't realize it, and if the individual who wrote the original message replies to the reply, they, too, are replying privately and are probably, or at minimum can be, completely unaware of that fact.
If, OTOH, such users click "Reply all" from their email, that does not solve the problem. The reply then does go to both the group and the individual (as a cc); however, if the cc'd individual happens to reply from THEIR email by clicking "Reply," their reply does not post to the group (although they probably believe it does) but rather goes privately to the person who replied to their original message, again causing a probably completely unknown private exchange.
Before realizing the specific circumstances of the problem, I started a thread about what I thought was a bug with the "disable other reply options" setting. Eventually, after I determined that one user involved in this kind of situation was on a PC running Windows 10, I posted that piece of information and Bruce posted the following. I have bolded his actual suggestion:
/Currently, in groups.io, the From: address of an individual message
is the same as the person who made the post. *An account setting
could be established to rewrite this From: address to match the
group address, but only for those groups that have both "Reply to
Group" and "Remove other reply options" set.* This is kinda along
the lines of the existing "I'm on GMail and always want copies of my
own emails" account setting. Although I'm reluctant to recommend the
expansion of such account settings, it should work, and is just
about all groups.io could do to address this./
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/26368
Since he was reluctant to make the suggestion, I am now doing it as a separate suggestion/topic, in case it got lost in the tangle of unrelated messages in the other one. Since then I have also found that the problem does not happen with all users running Win 10, but it specifically does reliably occur for people using aol or verizon. Of course there may be other cases, but it does happen with gmail, for example.
In the meantime, I have instructed all my group members using aol or verizon who are running WIndows 10 never use "Reply" to reply to a group message by email because it will not post to the group, and to either post from the web, or use "Reply all" and then go in and manually delete the cc to the individual, leaving just the group address. I've told the people involved that groups.io may come up with a fix, but meanwhile, that's what they have to do.
Thanks.
--
J
/Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones./
/My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu
//
/




--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

At the risk of not picking my battles: I have just had to announce to my group for about the fifth time that replies from users with verizon or aol email on a PC don't post to the group. There's another new member with this configuration and her replies were coming privately to me, again completely unknown to the member (and, at first, me). I now have a group sticky, an alert in the welcome message, and an alert in the group guidelines about this, complete with a sad statement that I've been trying to get groups.io to create a workaround but it's unlikely in the near future yada yada. But people don't read or get it. If there could be a workaround to this soon that would be extremely helpful.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Leeni
 

I was wondering why I have been getting a lot of messages to me as owner and not being sent to the group. That isn't good.  
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 10/20/2020 10:27:36 AM
Subject: Re: [beta] Rewrite "From" address to match group address in certain cases when user is running Windows 10 and aol or verizon email #suggestion
 
At the risk of not picking my battles: I have just had to announce to my group for about the fifth time that replies from users with verizon or aol email on a PC don't post to the group. There's another new member with this configuration and her replies were coming privately to me, again completely unknown to the member (and, at first, me). I now have a group sticky, an alert in the welcome message, and an alert in the group guidelines about this, complete with a sad statement that I've been trying to get groups.io to create a workaround but it's unlikely in the near future yada yada. But people don't read or get it. If there could be a workaround to this soon that would be extremely helpful.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 


 

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 08:51 AM, Leeni wrote:
I was wondering why I have been getting a lot of messages to me as owner
It took me quite a long time to narrow this down. I ran a bunch of "reply" experiments in my group, and members were willing to be the guinea pigs. Eventually I narrowed it down to verizon or aol users on a PC. Some people in this thread (I think Bruce) helped by pointing out the problem with the Windows 10 email program regarding addresses. If you check, I think you'll find this is happening with your group members who are using verizon or aol email on PCs. They are probably totally unaware their messages aren't posting.

I would bet money this is happening in many, MANY groups all over the place and neither the owners nor the members are even aware of it. You can reply and everything looks normal. The subject of the thread looks normal, as if everything is going to and from the group. You have to look closely at the email address and/or fail to find the message(s) on the site to even know there's a problem.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Leeni
 

I will check the activity now to see what email addresses they are using.
 
When I got an email to the owner, I would write the member and tell them to resend it. Then the same thing would happen again. 
 
I will report back my findings. 
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 10/20/2020 11:05:52 AM
Subject: Re: [beta] Rewrite "From" address to match group address in certain cases when user is running Windows 10 and aol or verizon email #suggestion
 
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 08:51 AM, Leeni wrote:
I was wondering why I have been getting a lot of messages to me as owner
It took me quite a long time to narrow this down. I ran a bunch of "reply" experiments in my group, and members were willing to be the guinea pigs. Eventually I narrowed it down to verizon or aol users on a PC. Some people in this thread (I think Bruce) helped by pointing out the problem with the Windows 10 email program regarding addresses. If you check, I think you'll find this is happening with your group members who are using verizon or aol email on PCs. They are probably totally unaware their messages aren't posting.

I would bet money this is happening in many, MANY groups all over the place and neither the owners nor the members are even aware of it. You can reply and everything looks normal. The subject of the thread looks normal, as if everything is going to and from the group. You have to look closely at the email address and/or fail to find the message(s) on the site to even know there's a problem.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 


 

Once I even noticed it was going on, I used to write them back and ask them how they were replying  privately within a thread, because we have PM’s disabled in my group and the replies were clearly within the thread. It made no sense that they could even do it. But it turned out they had no clue they were doing it and thought they were posting to the group. The problem gets exponentially worse when people start themselves replying tk the private reply, not even knowing it’s private. Threads upon threads of private conversations can be generated without anybody even being aware, including the psrticipants themselves.

This morning, the new member switched back to using her Mac and her messages are posting again.


On Oct 20, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Leeni <leeniluvsgroups2@...> wrote:


I will check the activity now to see what email addresses they are using.
 
When I got an email to the owner, I would write the member and tell them to resend it. Then the same thing would happen again. 
 
I will report back my findings. 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 10/20/2020 11:05:52 AM
Subject: Re: [beta] Rewrite "From" address to match group address in certain cases when user is running Windows 10 and aol or verizon email #suggestion
 
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 08:51 AM, Leeni wrote:
I was wondering why I have been getting a lot of messages to me as owner
It took me quite a long time to narrow this down. I ran a bunch of "reply" experiments in my group, and members were willing to be the guinea pigs. Eventually I narrowed it down to verizon or aol users on a PC. Some people in this thread (I think Bruce) helped by pointing out the problem with the Windows 10 email program regarding addresses. If you check, I think you'll find this is happening with your group members who are using verizon or aol email on PCs. They are probably totally unaware their messages aren't posting.

I would bet money this is happening in many, MANY groups all over the place and neither the owners nor the members are even aware of it. You can reply and everything looks normal. The subject of the thread looks normal, as if everything is going to and from the group. You have to look closely at the email address and/or fail to find the message(s) on the site to even know there's a problem.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu