Topics

moderated Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion


 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:34 PM Chuck Palmer <palmerct@...> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:56 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
A simple solution is a one-liner below the billing info, to the effect that “Your billing info, if entered, will be used for any groups you create that require payment, and for donations you elect to make to any of your groups that are enabled to ask for donations. You can change or remove it at any time.”
That idea seems like a good, pragmatic solution.  It does not involve a lot of heavy lifting and would definitely help minimize confusion.

I've added this.

Thanks,
Mark 


Glenn Glazer
 

I grant that that's the current motivating example, but the rest of the things that Chuck and Duane were discussing are perfectly achievable without the disappearing effect.

Best,

Glenn

On 9/3/2020 10:29, J_Catlady wrote:
Because I don’t like the ultimate effect. Billing info appearing and disappearing. Not being able to enter my billing info when ^I* want to do it (even if I want to do thst before joining or creating any groups). Etc.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 10:14 AM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


Why?

Best,

Glenn

On 9/3/2020 09:57, J_Catlady wrote:
Yes it can be done, but should it? I say no.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 9/3/2020 09:39, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

So, I'm a software engineer for Second Life. We have over 2.6 million resident groups in our system and we provide realtime group information, include roles for a member.

The simple db schema for such a thing is to have a user table which has information about users, including a UUID for the user; a groups table that has information about groups including a group UUID and a roles table that has role information including a role UUID. Then, there is a simple mapping table that has rows consisting of tuples (userid,groupid,roleid) that is updated whenever someone joins, leaves or changes roles in the group. Then, retrieving the roles and groups for a user is a simple SELECT statement against the mapping table and decoding the group and role id's back to human readable strings by a secondary lookup. No "waste of resources" and yes, it is available instantaneously. A query of this kind, even including the subqueries for the strings returns in fractions of a second - yes cycles are used, but not an appreciable amount. This is, after all, what databases are built to do.

Best,

Glenn

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Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
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Chuck Palmer
 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:56 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
A simple solution is a one-liner below the billing info, to the effect that “Your billing info, if entered, will be used for any groups you create that require payment, and for donations you elect to make to any of your groups that are enabled to ask for donations. You can change or remove it at any time.”
That idea seems like a good, pragmatic solution.  It does not involve a lot of heavy lifting and would definitely help minimize confusion.

-chuck


 

Hi Mark, I sent a possible blurb for the text. It’s a few posts downstream.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 10:37 AM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:


Hi All,

I'm not inclined to remove the tab. If you have suggestions for improvements to text on that page, I'd definitely consider that.

Thanks,
Mark

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Hi All,

I'm not inclined to remove the tab. If you have suggestions for improvements to text on that page, I'd definitely consider that.

Thanks,
Mark


 

Because I don’t like the ultimate effect. Billing info appearing and disappearing. Not being able to enter my billing info when ^I* want to do it (even if I want to do thst before joining or creating any groups). Etc.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 10:14 AM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


Why?

Best,

Glenn

On 9/3/2020 09:57, J_Catlady wrote:
Yes it can be done, but should it? I say no.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 9/3/2020 09:39, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

So, I'm a software engineer for Second Life. We have over 2.6 million resident groups in our system and we provide realtime group information, include roles for a member.

The simple db schema for such a thing is to have a user table which has information about users, including a UUID for the user; a groups table that has information about groups including a group UUID and a roles table that has role information including a role UUID. Then, there is a simple mapping table that has rows consisting of tuples (userid,groupid,roleid) that is updated whenever someone joins, leaves or changes roles in the group. Then, retrieving the roles and groups for a user is a simple SELECT statement against the mapping table and decoding the group and role id's back to human readable strings by a secondary lookup. No "waste of resources" and yes, it is available instantaneously. A query of this kind, even including the subqueries for the strings returns in fractions of a second - yes cycles are used, but not an appreciable amount. This is, after all, what databases are built to do.

Best,

Glenn

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Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



--
PG&E Delenda Est

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Glenn Glazer
 

Why?

Best,

Glenn

On 9/3/2020 09:57, J_Catlady wrote:
Yes it can be done, but should it? I say no.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 9/3/2020 09:39, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

So, I'm a software engineer for Second Life. We have over 2.6 million resident groups in our system and we provide realtime group information, include roles for a member.

The simple db schema for such a thing is to have a user table which has information about users, including a UUID for the user; a groups table that has information about groups including a group UUID and a roles table that has role information including a role UUID. Then, there is a simple mapping table that has rows consisting of tuples (userid,groupid,roleid) that is updated whenever someone joins, leaves or changes roles in the group. Then, retrieving the roles and groups for a user is a simple SELECT statement against the mapping table and decoding the group and role id's back to human readable strings by a secondary lookup. No "waste of resources" and yes, it is available instantaneously. A query of this kind, even including the subqueries for the strings returns in fractions of a second - yes cycles are used, but not an appreciable amount. This is, after all, what databases are built to do.

Best,

Glenn

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J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



--
PG&E Delenda Est


 

Yes it can be done, but should it? I say no.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 9/3/2020 09:39, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

So, I'm a software engineer for Second Life. We have over 2.6 million resident groups in our system and we provide realtime group information, include roles for a member.

The simple db schema for such a thing is to have a user table which has information about users, including a UUID for the user; a groups table that has information about groups including a group UUID and a roles table that has role information including a role UUID. Then, there is a simple mapping table that has rows consisting of tuples (userid,groupid,roleid) that is updated whenever someone joins, leaves or changes roles in the group. Then, retrieving the roles and groups for a user is a simple SELECT statement against the mapping table and decoding the group and role id's back to human readable strings by a secondary lookup. No "waste of resources" and yes, it is available instantaneously. A query of this kind, even including the subqueries for the strings returns in fractions of a second - yes cycles are used, but not an appreciable amount. This is, after all, what databases are built to do.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

Virus-free. www.avast.com

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Something else that might occur is I join groups.io before I join any groups (I actually did that) and know thst im going to be creating some paid groups and want to enter my billing info at thst point.,Why should the system not let me do that?

A simple solution is a one-liner below the billing info, to the effect that “Your billing info, if entered, will be used for any groups you create that require payment, and for donations you elect to make to any of your groups that are enabled to ask for donations. You can change or remove it at any time.”

Well, maybe that’s not a one-liner, but you get the idea.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:39 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

For those groups that I am an owner or that have donations turned on, it makes sense for me to see the Billing menu item and it should be accessible.
There's at least one additional case to consider.  A moderator can have billing privileges to pay for a group without owning it.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Glenn Glazer
 

On 9/3/2020 09:39, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

So, I'm a software engineer for Second Life. We have over 2.6 million resident groups in our system and we provide realtime group information, include roles for a member.

The simple db schema for such a thing is to have a user table which has information about users, including a UUID for the user; a groups table that has information about groups including a group UUID and a roles table that has role information including a role UUID. Then, there is a simple mapping table that has rows consisting of tuples (userid,groupid,roleid) that is updated whenever someone joins, leaves or changes roles in the group. Then, retrieving the roles and groups for a user is a simple SELECT statement against the mapping table and decoding the group and role id's back to human readable strings by a secondary lookup. No "waste of resources" and yes, it is available instantaneously. A query of this kind, even including the subqueries for the strings returns in fractions of a second - yes cycles are used, but not an appreciable amount. This is, after all, what databases are built to do.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Duane
 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

For those groups that I am an owner or that have donations turned on, it makes sense for me to see the Billing menu item and it should be accessible.
There's at least one additional case to consider.  A moderator can have billing privileges to pay for a group without owning it.

Duane


 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 09:23 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
This is not a simple piece of data in the account. The monitoring required to maintain it would be nontrivial. Any time a group changed the Donations toggle, all the group members would have to be processed. And even if you argue that it's no big deal, I still don't like the end result on the UI - my billing info suddenly disappears like the Cheshire cat, and maybe appears again or I am made to enter it again, possibly over and over again.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 09:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.

For those groups that I am an owner or that have donations turned on, it makes sense for me to see the Billing menu item and it should be accessible.

Likewise, if I am not owner of any group and none of groups that I am a member of have donations turned on, that Billing menu item should not be accessible.
I still disagree with the basic premise. Suppose I am the owner of a premium group and have entered my billing info. Should that simply disappear when I downgrade or delete the group? I'm not talking about whether the page to enter it should disappear or be grayed out. I'm talking about the information itself. Suppose the next day I join a group that happens to have Donations turned on. Should my billing info then miraculously (courtesy of the groups.io system) be restored? Or should I be made to enter it again? Etc. I think any of those would be ridiculous. Once I enter billing info, I would expect it to stay there unless I personally delete it. If I downgrade or delete my premium group, and my billing info disappears, and then I create a different premium group an hous later, then what are you proposing should happen?

The simplest solution for naive users is to put some explanation on the page itself. This is not rocket science. If somebody has a problem, you can hold their hand. There are bigger things to worry about.
 
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J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Chuck Palmer
 

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 08:04 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
The credit card should be on if any one or more of the groups the user is in has Donations on.
 
Exactly! I'm thinking that I should have been more explicit/precise in my original suggestion.  I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.

For those groups that I am an owner or that have donations turned on, it makes sense for me to see the Billing menu item and it should be accessible.

Likewise, if I am not owner of any group and none of groups that I am a member of have donations turned on, that Billing menu item should not be accessible.

The member base for one of my groups is about retirees who are, in most cases, not that computer literate.  I have the club's website setup to take their yearly membership dues via PayPal.  But I'm now getting questions from members asking "is this where I put my credit card info now?", etc.  It's an Apple Users Group club with about 1,000 members so we run the gamut -- from very knowledgeable members to those just learning how to use their new smart iPads/iPhones.  A bit of a challenge...-;)


 

And that's not even mentioning that any member of your group can be the owner of some other group and needs to able to pay for it.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 04:59 PM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
please explain to me why my group's members should be able to put their credit card information in?
Sure, no problem. It's because they might be in other groups that do have Donations turned on.

You're still talking as if you think users are in only one group: yours. Whereas they may be (and often are) in several or many groups, all of which can toggle their Donations on and off.

"Donations on" or "Donations off" is not an account/user variable(*). "Credit card" is a user variable. They don't match 1-1. The credit card should be on if any one or more of the groups the user is in has Donations on.
 
(*) except indirectly, as a function of ALL the groups the user is in
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Chuck Palmer
 

Still feels like a basic disconnect here. Donations on or off is only an indirect function of the account. You’d have to continually check all the groups the user is in.
Only group owners have the ability to turn on/off the Donations functionality for their groups.  If I, as a group owner, don't want Donations enabled for my group and therefore don't enable the Stripe connection, please explain to me why my group's members should be able to put their credit card information in?

In addition to having some of my members asking me what it's for, I wonder from a privacy perspective where the info is physically kept?

Kind Regards,
-chuck


 

Still feels like a basic disconnect here. Donations on or off is only an indirect function of the account. You’d have to continually check all the groups the user is in.


On Sep 2, 2020, at 7:29 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 05:26 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
But Mark, you say, things disappear on the group sidebar if they are not enabled. You're right! Perhaps I should change that so that instead of them disappearing, they should be disabled. Anyone object to that?
I've noticed that when grayed out, it can be difficult to distinguish the text color from 'normal'.  If it's not too much trouble, maybe use the ban icon in front of (or behind?) anything not available instead of only when hovering over it, in addition to the graying.

Thanks,
Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 05:26 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
But Mark, you say, things disappear on the group sidebar if they are not enabled. You're right! Perhaps I should change that so that instead of them disappearing, they should be disabled. Anyone object to that?
I've noticed that when grayed out, it can be difficult to distinguish the text color from 'normal'.  If it's not too much trouble, maybe use the ban icon in front of (or behind?) anything not available instead of only when hovering over it, in addition to the graying.

Thanks,
Duane


Radioman ZeroZero
 

If you don't need them then you don't need to know where they are.  It's just clutter for most users.
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Thanks Steve