Topics

moderated Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion


Chuck Palmer
 

See this thread in GMF - https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/topic/76526722

Suggestion is to turn off Billing->Credit Card under Account if the member is not a group owner or Donations is not turned on.
If Donations is not turned on, its presence is not needed and only adds confusion for those who are not group owners.

Thanks!
-chuck
[Mod note: edited the subject to be more descriptive]


 

But isn’t Donation a group-specific goggle? Whereas the credit card tab is account-specific. So the suggestion doesn’t really make sense.


On Aug 31, 2020, at 10:35 AM, Chuck Palmer <palmerct@...> wrote:

See this thread in GMF - https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/topic/76526722

Suggestion is to turn off Billing->Credit Card under Account if the member is not a group owner or Donations is not turned on.
If Donations is not turned on, its presence is not needed and only adds confusion for those who are not group owners.

Thanks!
-chuck
[Mod note: edited the subject to be more descriptive]

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Sorry, typo! Toggle, not goggle 😊


On Aug 31, 2020, at 10:48 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

But isn’t Donation a group-specific goggle? Whereas the credit card tab is account-specific. So the suggestion doesn’t really make sense.


On Aug 31, 2020, at 10:35 AM, Chuck Palmer <palmerct@...> wrote:

See this thread in GMF - https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/topic/76526722

Suggestion is to turn off Billing->Credit Card under Account if the member is not a group owner or Donations is not turned on.
If Donations is not turned on, its presence is not needed and only adds confusion for those who are not group owners.

Thanks!
-chuck
[Mod note: edited the subject to be more descriptive]

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:35 AM Chuck Palmer <palmerct@...> wrote:
See this thread in GMF - https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/topic/76526722

Suggestion is to turn off Billing->Credit Card under Account if the member is not a group owner or Donations is not turned on.
If Donations is not turned on, its presence is not needed and only adds confusion for those who are not group owners.


My inclination has been to not remove things in the interface that are not available, but to disable them/grey them out, when possible. My thinking is that I want people to know where everything is, even if they can't currently use a given feature. I've been frustrated with other software where things appear and disappear depending on settings. "Why should I look there, I've never seen it there before!" Also, at least for me, it creates awareness that the software can actually do that particular feature, even if I can't take advantage of it at the time.

But Mark, you say, things disappear on the group sidebar if they are not enabled. You're right! Perhaps I should change that so that instead of them disappearing, they should be disabled. Anyone object to that?

Thanks,
Mark


paul fox
 

mark wrote:
> My inclination has been to not remove things in the interface that are not
> available, but to disable them/grey them out, when possible. My thinking
> is that I want people to know where everything is, even if they can't
> currently use a given feature. I've been frustrated with other software
> where things appear and disappear depending on settings. "Why should I
> look there, I've never seen it there before!" Also, at least for me, it
> creates awareness that the software can actually do that particular
> feature, even if I can't take advantage of it at the time.
> But Mark, you say, things disappear on the group sidebar if they are not
> enabled. You're right! Perhaps I should change that so that instead of
> them disappearing, they should be disabled. Anyone object to that?

Could the list at least be ordered such that the features that _are_
enabled are all at the top? When many things are disabled, there will
be long jumps between active elements in the list.

paul
=----------------------
paul fox, pgf@... (arlington, ma, where it's 66.0 degrees)


Chuck Palmer
 

Agree. By “turn off” I meant disable — not remove. 


Chuck Palmer
 

On the contrary — it does not make sense for members to be able to enter a credit card in their account info if they are not owners or if Donations are not enabled. 


Terry Slattery
 

I agree with Mark. People learn where things are, even if they are not enabled. "Now, where did I see that option?" and an ensuing search through the GUI to try to find the option, only to find out that the 'mode' you were in didn't show it. This is why User Interface guidelines prefer that items be disabled (grayed out) instead of removed.
  -Terry


Duane
 

On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 08:04 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
it does not make sense for members to be able to enter a credit card in their account info if they are not owners or if Donations are not enabled.
But it doesn't hurt anything either.  It could be a nightmare, IMO, to keep track of whether any group a person belongs to has Donations enabled at any given time since they can be turned on and off as needed.  People can also join and leave groups as often as they want.  Having the card info already entered would make it easier for someone that creates a group and decides to upgrade.  The new manuals in the Help Center certainly make finding things a lot easier than they used to be, but unfortunately many people don't read them.  Having unused/unavailable options disabled/grayed would be useful in this respect.

Duane


 

“If Donations are not enabled” for what, exactly? Are you saying groups.io should daily monitor whether any of the user’s groups have Donstuins enabled, and toggle the enablement of their credit back and forth accordingly, depending on their groups? People here are addressing this issue as if “Donations enabled” applied to a user (it doesn’t), or as if the user is only in one group. Doesn’t make sense because the former is not correct and the latter probably is usually not. 


On Sep 1, 2020, at 6:04 AM, Chuck Palmer <palmerct@...> wrote:

On the contrary — it does not make sense for members to be able to enter a credit card in their account info if they are not owners or if Donations are not enabled. 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 07:05 AM, Duane wrote:
But it doesn't hurt anything either.  It could be a nightmare, IMO, to keep track of whether any group a person belongs to has Donations enabled at any given time since they can be turned on and off as needed. 
Exactly. Seems like someone here gets it.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Radioman ZeroZero
 

If you don't need them then you don't need to know where they are.  It's just clutter for most users.
--
Thanks Steve


Duane
 

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 05:26 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
But Mark, you say, things disappear on the group sidebar if they are not enabled. You're right! Perhaps I should change that so that instead of them disappearing, they should be disabled. Anyone object to that?
I've noticed that when grayed out, it can be difficult to distinguish the text color from 'normal'.  If it's not too much trouble, maybe use the ban icon in front of (or behind?) anything not available instead of only when hovering over it, in addition to the graying.

Thanks,
Duane


 

Still feels like a basic disconnect here. Donations on or off is only an indirect function of the account. You’d have to continually check all the groups the user is in.


On Sep 2, 2020, at 7:29 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 05:26 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
But Mark, you say, things disappear on the group sidebar if they are not enabled. You're right! Perhaps I should change that so that instead of them disappearing, they should be disabled. Anyone object to that?
I've noticed that when grayed out, it can be difficult to distinguish the text color from 'normal'.  If it's not too much trouble, maybe use the ban icon in front of (or behind?) anything not available instead of only when hovering over it, in addition to the graying.

Thanks,
Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Chuck Palmer
 

Still feels like a basic disconnect here. Donations on or off is only an indirect function of the account. You’d have to continually check all the groups the user is in.
Only group owners have the ability to turn on/off the Donations functionality for their groups.  If I, as a group owner, don't want Donations enabled for my group and therefore don't enable the Stripe connection, please explain to me why my group's members should be able to put their credit card information in?

In addition to having some of my members asking me what it's for, I wonder from a privacy perspective where the info is physically kept?

Kind Regards,
-chuck


 

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 04:59 PM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
please explain to me why my group's members should be able to put their credit card information in?
Sure, no problem. It's because they might be in other groups that do have Donations turned on.

You're still talking as if you think users are in only one group: yours. Whereas they may be (and often are) in several or many groups, all of which can toggle their Donations on and off.

"Donations on" or "Donations off" is not an account/user variable(*). "Credit card" is a user variable. They don't match 1-1. The credit card should be on if any one or more of the groups the user is in has Donations on.
 
(*) except indirectly, as a function of ALL the groups the user is in
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

And that's not even mentioning that any member of your group can be the owner of some other group and needs to able to pay for it.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Chuck Palmer
 

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 08:04 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
The credit card should be on if any one or more of the groups the user is in has Donations on.
 
Exactly! I'm thinking that I should have been more explicit/precise in my original suggestion.  I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.

For those groups that I am an owner or that have donations turned on, it makes sense for me to see the Billing menu item and it should be accessible.

Likewise, if I am not owner of any group and none of groups that I am a member of have donations turned on, that Billing menu item should not be accessible.

The member base for one of my groups is about retirees who are, in most cases, not that computer literate.  I have the club's website setup to take their yearly membership dues via PayPal.  But I'm now getting questions from members asking "is this where I put my credit card info now?", etc.  It's an Apple Users Group club with about 1,000 members so we run the gamut -- from very knowledgeable members to those just learning how to use their new smart iPads/iPhones.  A bit of a challenge...-;)


 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 09:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.

For those groups that I am an owner or that have donations turned on, it makes sense for me to see the Billing menu item and it should be accessible.

Likewise, if I am not owner of any group and none of groups that I am a member of have donations turned on, that Billing menu item should not be accessible.
I still disagree with the basic premise. Suppose I am the owner of a premium group and have entered my billing info. Should that simply disappear when I downgrade or delete the group? I'm not talking about whether the page to enter it should disappear or be grayed out. I'm talking about the information itself. Suppose the next day I join a group that happens to have Donations turned on. Should my billing info then miraculously (courtesy of the groups.io system) be restored? Or should I be made to enter it again? Etc. I think any of those would be ridiculous. Once I enter billing info, I would expect it to stay there unless I personally delete it. If I downgrade or delete my premium group, and my billing info disappears, and then I create a different premium group an hous later, then what are you proposing should happen?

The simplest solution for naive users is to put some explanation on the page itself. This is not rocket science. If somebody has a problem, you can hold their hand. There are bigger things to worry about.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 09:23 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
This is not a simple piece of data in the account. The monitoring required to maintain it would be nontrivial. Any time a group changed the Donations toggle, all the group members would have to be processed. And even if you argue that it's no big deal, I still don't like the end result on the UI - my billing info suddenly disappears like the Cheshire cat, and maybe appears again or I am made to enter it again, possibly over and over again.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu