... Integration sent message "File Notifications #file-notice"
requiring approval because it's a moderated integration message via
email.

I believe the word Integration there is a misnomer,

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

It's a bit difficult to carry forward meaningful quotes here! Anyway...

About Suggestion 1:

On 2020-06-19 these were put under control of the group's Message Moderation setting, as not doing so was seen as a bug.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25466

I think it also served to avoid forcing group mods to find/create each relevant hashtag and mark it "Moderated". At least in moderated groups.

Very possibly true, but it leaves a gap in overall capabilities. With a starting point of the fact that uploads themselves are not moderated, historically File uploads were announced immediately, assuming of course that hte originator ticked the box. Now any owners of moderated groups HAVE to follow the group setting even if thry would be perfectly happy to allow instant notifications. Should owners of unmoderated groups wish to moderate upload notifications then the new system allows them to do so, for moderated groups there is no option to turn that moderation off for upload notifications, and I was (and still am) seeking that capability.

If there was a "Do Not Moderate" checkbox for these notifications then this request would be met. Same outcome, different implementation. Please consider this possibility.

Moving on to Suggestion 2: When a member chooses to Notify members then the
Moderators’ Notification is superfluous and should not be sent. It isn't though. At least not for a moderator who doesn't have the permission to moderate messages, or who has turned Pending Messages notification off.

Ah but IMHO it is! Obviously I will agree that a moderator such you describe won't see any notification, but they will see the "published message" once someone else has released it. As I think that is sufficient then I think I will leave my suggestion in place in the hope that it will be considered; all I seek to achieve is better management of what is sent to moderators by minimising "excessive" traffic. 

My Suggestion 3: I'm not convinced! Perhaps I tried too many uploads and finished up confusing myself. In any event, if Suggestion 2 were to be accepted than "3" goes away of its own accord.

Suggestion 4 seems to be acceptable! :)

Now then... a bit of new business, and this is something I overlooked when preparing my previous submission.

If an individual File or Photo is uploaded then the notification has a subject line that is unique to that upload. If, however, any upload "window" includes 2 or more individual Files or Photos then the notification is a generic one that is common to every multiple Files or Photo upload. The result of that is that the published message about the notification is tacked on to any previous generically - titled notification, possibly with the 30 day limit on similar subjects. The result is that a thread of notifications is generated even if the only common factor is that they are File or Photo related. IMHO every group notification should be a standalone event and they should not be allowed to form a thread. It simply looks "wrong".

I tried to prevent this by experimenting with automatically locking the hashtag as soon as the notification was published, but IIRC it was trying that that "broke" Groups.io; it certainly took serious umbrage at this and notifications went completely haywire and I had to stop before (a) my sanity deserted me and/or (b)  I broke the entire internet.

So let's try a Suggestion 5: "somehow" generically titled notifications should be prevented from clumping together into a thread.  

I hope the above makes a bit of sense...

Chris

*Suggestion 1:* consider making _all_ Group Notifications
*un*moderated, ... hitherto File uploads have been “instantly”
notified. i.e. unmoderated.

Where an individual member chooses to notify the membership of an
upload the existing configuration sends Moderators (a) a Moderat*or*
Notification, (b) a Moderat*ion* Notification (subject to Group
Moderation Setting – see above) and (c) the “published” message,
i.e. 2 or perhaps 3 related notifications.

In addition, (a) and (b) are visually almost identical,

and their arrival in order (a)(b) is not certain. ... This is likely
to be a source of confusion.

*Suggestion 2:* When a member chooses to Notify members then the
Moderat*ors’* Notification is superfluous and should not be sent.

*Suggestion 3:* (a) and (b) need to be /much/ more easily
distinguished,

*Suggestion 4:* either ... or change the Notification “subject” so
that it applies to “changes” rather than being specific to deletions
or uploads.

I assume that the “aggregation window” opens when the first deletion /
upload / edit is triggered.

Does a second related “event” reset the timer so that the window
closes after x minutes of *in*activity or is a fixed period after the
first action?

I'll go away and prepare the second batch, some of which are more complex

What follows is based on the assumption that Moderators have Files & Photos Notifications on.

Group Notifications of uploads are moderated (or not) according to the group Moderation Setting, not those of the individual members.

Suggestion 1: consider making all Group Notifications unmoderated, with Group Owners / Moderators deciding their preferences and setting the relevant hashtags accordingly. (It is perhaps worth bearing in mind that hitherto File uploads have been “instantly” notified. i.e. unmoderated. This suggestion would IMHO most closely match what existed.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where an individual member chooses to notify the membership of an upload the existing configuration sends Moderators (a) a Moderator Notification, (b) a Moderation Notification (subject to Group Moderation Setting – see above) and (c) the “published” message, i.e. 2 or perhaps 3 related notifications.  

In addition, (a) and (b) are visually almost identical, and their arrival in order (a)(b) is not certain. (Trust me; I know!) This is likely to be a source of confusion.

Suggestion 2: When a member chooses to Notify members then the Moderators’ Notification is superfluous and should not be sent.

 Suggestion 3: (a) and (b) need to be much more easily distinguished, preferably without actually having to open the email, given that one is “FYI” and the other is “Action Required”.  This suggestion applies irrespective of Suggestion (1) because both (a) and (b) will continue to exist, albeit not at the same time.

 
If a member carries out a deletion, or number of deletions immediately followed by an upload or uploads within the “time window” then the Moderator Notification will be titled such as to refer to deletions but will include any uploads. As far as I can tell notifications about Files and Photos are not put together; the two categories do remain separate.

Suggestion 4: either a change in programming to ensure that deletions and uploads cannot appear in the same Notification, or change the Notification “subject” so that it applies to “changes” rather than being specific to deletions or uploads.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clarification Request: I assume that the “aggregation window” opens when the first deletion / upload / edit is triggered. Does a second related “event” reset the timer so that the window closes after x minutes of inactivity or is a fixed period after the first action?

Mark; your consideration of the above would be much appreciated. I think I have now covered all the "matters arising" but time will tell. :)

Chris

I'll try to report within 48 hours.

Having carried out a whole series of tests my first batch of observations and suggestions is set out below. I would like to think that they are “complete” but there almost certainly things that I have missed. (Sorry!)

Simple – to – report things first:

•  The creation of a Folder is notified, but the creation of a photo Album is not. (Note: there is a mix of terminology here; in the Activity log a Folder is called a directory, and the Notification refers to a directory as well; IMHO it would be better if the word directory was not used.

• The Move of a.File is notified, but the Move of a Photo is not. FWIW there is no available entry in the Activity log for the movement of a Photo.

• If a Photo is Edited, e.g. by adding some Description or changing its Name then a Notification is generated but the notification is to the effect that a new upload has taken place. This has the potential to be profoundly confusing. (Name changing can be a useful way of determining the order in which photos are displayed in an album, and adding a Description cannot be done at the time of upload; it can only be done by editing; neither action should be seen as in any way unusual. ) Edits should be notified as edits, not new uploads.

• Notifications of Folder / File activities are by instigator’s Display Name only but Notifications of Album / Photo activity are by Display Name and email address.  It should be by Display name only.  

• At this time deletions, edits and the like are not sent to the original owner of the material. If that notification is introduced, then it is essential that the notification is an accurate summary of what was done and not a complete mis – description. I would suggest that any such edit provides the option of including a “Reason for Edit” that can (again optionally) be fed back to the original owner.  That “reason for edit” would not need to be stored for future reference; its only purpose would be to advise the material’s originator of why changes were being made.
  
  Having said that while "uploaders" have the ability to not notify members of an upload I would prefer to have the ability to not inform original uploaders of any edits or deletions.

Not intentional, it was a bug. Just fixed.

Another source of puzzlement was as follows: the "Uploaded By" column
in Files had my /member/ Display Name shown (expected). However, the
Notifications showed the uploads as having been carried out by my
moderator Display Name (NOT expected).

Oh, that is weird. Looking at the upload of 1:08pm today (PDT)...

I see the same discrepancy between the Files list and both the Moderator Notices and Group Notices I received for those files you uploaded. I think the combiner somehow combined more than it should have, attributing all the individual actions to one (the first?) actor.

It suddenly occurred to me that the moderation requirement seen this
morning could be a function of the moderation status of the "uploader"

... my perspective is that of being heartily fed up with members who
upload "stuff" without bothering to announce the fact. ... and that I
and the other moderators have to trawl through the Activity Log to
find out what odd corner things have been put in.

A push notification is too transient to be of any help here.

... Integration sent message "File Notifications #file-notice"
requiring approval because it's a moderated integration message via
email.

I haven't fully tested everything yet but the implication is that a
"single upload notification" would pass through without moderation
being required.

I was unable to replicate what I had observed earlier. In all cases
the member notification went through without the need for moderation.

IMO the incorporation of the File Name into a single notification is
wrong; ...

Another source of puzzlement was as follows: the "Uploaded By" column
in Files had my /member/ Display Name shown (expected). However, the
Notifications showed the uploads as having been carried out by my
moderator Display Name (NOT expected).

I was unable to replicate what I had observed earlier. In all cases the member notification went through without the need for moderation. 

Some clarification about the "protocol" would be greatly appreciated.

As an aside, having found (the hard way) that it is very easy to forget to tick a "notify" checkbox when doing multiple uploads, my current view is that the File & Photo checkboxes should be checked by default. Better still (to satisfy both schools of thought) the default state should be moderator settable in Settings.