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Testing notifications #misc

 

Hi All,

Before I roll out the new moderator notifications (for chat/files/photos/wikis/databases), I'd like some feedback on them. If you're interested, please contact me off-list and I'll enable them for you. You won't be able to turn them off during the test (that is, they will not show up in Notifications in your Subscription page). They will be set to Email and Web/App, which is the default and they will be turned on for all of your groups.

If your groups have no activity in those areas, you will receive no notifications.

Note that moderator notifications are not sent to you if you did the action that caused the notification. For example, if I'm a moderator of a group with photo notifications turned on, and I upload a photo, I will not get notified of it. But if someone else uploads a photo, I will get that notification.

Thanks,
Mark

Bob Morley
 


On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 02:42 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Note that moderator notifications are not sent to you if you did the action that caused the notification. For example, if I'm a moderator of a group with photo notifications turned on, and I upload a photo, I will not get notified of it. But if someone else uploads a photo, I will get that notification.
Playing the devil's advocate:

1. But I want to know that my uploaded photo did actually get uploaded without having to go to the web and verify.

2. Perhaps even more obscure: I would *want" to be notified if a photo was uploaded under my ID and it wasn't me doing the upload. 
 
--
Gerald

Duane
 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 03:04 PM, Bob Morley wrote:
1. But I want to know that my uploaded photo did actually get uploaded without having to go to the web and verify.

2. Perhaps even more obscure: I would *want" to be notified if a photo was uploaded under my ID and it wasn't me doing the upload.
1.  You have to be online to upload anyway.

2.  Can't be done.  Ownership of a photo can be changed after upload, but in the activity log, the original upload is always attributed to the person logged in.

Duane

 

Hi All,

The new moderator notifications have been turned on for those who asked. There are also a couple changes that have just gone live for all:

- The notifications generated when a member checks a `Notify Members` checkbox are also now sent through the combiner, so they won't immediately appear in your group. If multiple notifications of the same kind are generated quickly, they will be merged into one email. Also, these notifications no longer have the 'Cheers, Groups.io Team' signature. The new per-moderator notifications now being tested work the same way.
- In the Subscription and group members pages, the `Notifications` panel has been renamed `Moderator Notifications`.

Please let me know if you have any questions or see anything amiss.

Thanks,
Mark

 

Mark,

Please let me know if you have any questions or see anything amiss.
One thing that stood out on a recent #wiki-notice was the "Integration" badge in the Pending list. I don't think that was there before, so I'll blame the combiner for it.

Shal

 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 10:42 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Note that moderator notifications are not sent to you if you did the action that caused the notification.
Mark, I am getting web/app notifications whenever I post a message, because I have myself on moderation so that I can edit my messages (and to make sure I didn't send them to the wrong place). While I can live with this, I do find it a bit disconcerting every time. :) Is there a way to fix this?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

This morning I removed the hashtags from the new moderator notifications. My thinking was that these notifications aren't controlled by hashtag muting, so having the hashtags would be confusing. And it matches our existing moderator notifications, which have never had hashtags.

Thanks,
Mark

Andy Wedge
 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:54 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
now sent through the combiner,
I don't like this combiner approach with a 4 minute delay. It seems to me that we have a sharp new system to send out immediate notifications and then we blunt that by delaying them. If I want the notifications, I want them almost immediately, if I don't I should have the ability to turn them off.  Earlier, a member in one of my subgroups updated a database. He then emailed me off list to confirm he'd made a change and his email arrived before the Groups.io notification, making that notification pointless. If the combiner delay was something more reasonable, say 30 seconds, that would be better as I can understand the need to combine some quick-fire changes into one notice, however, 4 minutes is way to long me and I'd rather have the option to turn the combiner off than have that.

Regards,
Andy

 

Agree 110% with Andy. I haven’t followed the conversation about aggregation but now reading that the notifications are going to be blunted (great word) like this, I’m really shaking my head. I think it’s the wrong approach. Like Andy says: if you don’t like them, turn them off.


On Jun 25, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:54 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
now sent through the combiner,
I don't like this combiner approach with a 4 minute delay. It seems to me that we have a sharp new system to send out immediate notifications and then we blunt that by delaying them. If I want the notifications, I want them almost immediately, if I don't I should have the ability to turn them off.  Earlier, a member in one of my subgroups updated a database. He then emailed me off list to confirm he'd made a change and his email arrived before the Groups.io notification, making that notification pointless. If the combiner delay was something more reasonable, say 30 seconds, that would be better as I can understand the need to combine some quick-fire changes into one notice, however, 4 minutes is way to long me and I'd rather have the option to turn the combiner off than have that.

Regards,
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

Andy,

I don't like this combiner approach with a 4 minute delay. It seems to
me that we have a sharp new system to send out immediate notifications
and then we blunt that by delaying them.
OTOH if you want immediacy you can enable it as a web/app notification. That's even faster than prompt email delivery.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25544

Of course, that won't help you (yet) when using the mobile app.

I was concerned with the first-out delay time introduced by the combiner, but now I think I may be fine with it, given that push notifications are still immediate.

Shal

 

Mark,

The new moderator notifications have been turned on for those who
asked.
#bug

In my test group my display name has an apostrophe in it. And, well, yeah:

To: Shals2nd&#39;s Display Name <@Shal>
From: main@shalstest.groups.io Notification <main@shalstest.groups.io>
Subject: [shalstest] Photo IMGP7434 Saturn.jpg uploaded
Gotta love HTML.

Shal

 

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 7:34 PM Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

In my test group my display name has an apostrophe in it. And, well, yeah:

 > To: Shals2nd&#39;s Display Name <shals2nd@...>
 > From: main@shalstest.groups.io Notification <main@shalstest.groups.io>
 > Subject: [shalstest] Photo IMGP7434 Saturn.jpg uploaded


Should be fixed now.

Thanks,
Mark 

 

Mark,

Should be fixed now.

Yup. But this is wrong for a wholly different reason...

> To: Shals2nd"s Display Name <shals2nd@...>
> From: main@shalstest.groups.io Notification <main@shalstest.groups.io>
> Subject: [shalstest] File /Never had a folder before./0-stories.txt uploaded

You knew I had to try it.

Amusingly it seems to have revealed a bug in Thunderbird:
I'm not sure but it looks like it thought the quote lead in a qtext that slurped up the email address proper, leaving the email address part empty.

Didn't fool Gmail's web interface though:


Shal

Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 02:37 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
I was concerned with the first-out delay time introduced by the combiner, but now I think I may be fine with it, given that push notifications are still immediate.

Which sort of comes back to Chris' point that the notifications work in different ways https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25572

Some other things I have noticed:

  • push notifications do not identify the (sub)group that the activity took place in. As I am in multiple groups and my main group has 20+ subgroups, knowing which (sub)group the activity took place in is kind of important.





  • The spacing on the email notification for certain events is not consistent:




  • The HTML code for some table descriptions is shown:


Regards,
Andy

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 11:20 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I don't like this combiner approach with a 4 minute delay. <snip> If the combiner delay was something more reasonable, say 30 seconds, that would be better as I can understand the need to combine some quick-fire changes into one notice, however, 4 minutes is way to long me and I'd rather have the option to turn the combiner off than have that.
and later wrote: The spacing on the email notification for certain events is not consistent...

I can easily come up with with a counter - argument that 4 minutes isn't nearly long enough, say if someone is creating a new album. 4 minutes may not be enough to upload all the relevant photos, let along go back and perhaps edit the photo names and add some descriptive text. If that is the case the new album may not be ready - to - eat for perhaps 30 minutes or more, in which case a 4 minute aggregated notification will be somewhat premature, and 30 seconds definitely so.

The only solutions (not ones that I am suggesting that Mark should implement, nice as they might be) would be one in which the notification was sent after (say) 10 minutes inactivity on the part of the originator, or perhaps one whereby the originator was prompted by Send Notification Now? somewhere.

Moving to the later point... I suspect that the "inconsistency" is down to the intervals at which an email client polls the mail provider's server. The PC on which I am typing this was set up less than a fortnight ago,  and the default setting on the email client (Outlook) was 30 minutes. My preference is for something rather shorter so I have set it to 10 minutes, but even that is enough for an apparent inconsistency to appear; if a notification arrives just before a poll then the email delivery will seem to be immediate, while if it just misses a poll the delivery will be 10 minutes "late".

Not much Groups.io can do about that...

Chris

Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 09:45 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
The only solutions (not ones that I am suggesting that Mark should implement, nice as they might be) would be one in which the notification was sent after (say) 10 minutes inactivity on the part of the originator, or perhaps one whereby the originator was prompted by Send Notification Now? somewhere.
Or even better, allow the combiner to be turned off and/or the delay to moderator controlled

I suspect that the "inconsistency" is down to the intervals at which an email client polls
No, the inconsistency I was referring to is the spacing between events listed in one notification email from Groups.io

the default setting on the email client (Outlook) was 30 minutes. My preference is for something rather shorter so I have set it to 10 minutes
It has always been my understanding, and my own testing seems to back this up, that those send/receive time intervals apply to IMAP and POP3 collections. If you have Exchange accounts in Outlook (which my main ones are) then the mail collection is triggered by an email arriving at the Exchange server, so the send/receive intervals don't apply anyway. For all the IMAP email accounts I have defined in Outlook, the send/receive interval is set at 2 minutes. So, before this combiner process kicked in, I'd get two notifications almost simultaneously, one in Outlook and one in Firefox. I think having a choice of whether I want a push notification or an email (or both) is great; slowing down the delivery of emails (unless the receiver is in control) is not.

Regards,
Andy

Andy

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:57 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I think having a choice of whether I want a push notification or an email (or both) is great; slowing down the delivery of emails (unless the receiver is in control) is not.
But is there any evidence that suggests Groups.io is slowing down email deliveries, even taking into account your other points about possible delays due to polling differences? Every now and then some emails seem to be held up somewhere along the route; on occasions I have had messages turn up post - moderation before the (email) notification that there was something awaiting moderation put in an appearance.

Yes; it's a bit annoying but c'est la vie... <shrug>

Chris

PS to Mark; thanks for turning my push notifications on; I got the first one this morning. For some reason the group I moderate has gone super - quiet in the last few days so I had to wait for something to happen. A nice, clear, clean, unmistakeable appearance. :)

Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:15 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
But is there any evidence that suggests Groups.io is slowing down email deliveries,
By virtue of the fact that notifications by email are effectively being held back by the combiner then yes, they are being delayed. If the combiner wasn't there, they would be sent immediately.  I understand that once Groups.io has actually deigned to transmit an email it's down to the vagaries of the internet,

Andy

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 12:03 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
By virtue of the fact that notifications by email are effectively being held back by the combiner then yes, they are being delayed. If the combiner wasn't there, they would be sent immediately. 
Ah; I see the point you are making.

However, having thought about it over lunch, I have come to the conclusion that from my perspective it really doesn't matter. I honestly cannot see why a delay - reportedly 4 minutes - makes any difference at all. If OTOH it helps cut down the number of individual notifications about the same subject then I'm all for it, and that explains why I suggested in my earlier post that 4 minutes might not be long enough. 

A notification delay doesn't even make it into the list of Top Twenty Things That Annoy Me. (FWIW nothing about Groups.io makes it into that list!)

I am "out" for some of the time on most days, but of course that means I don't see things that happen on Groups.io in real time. It really doesn't matter if I have to play catch - up later.

In what way is life diminished by any such delay?

Chris

 



On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 10:40 PM Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

Yup. But this is wrong for a wholly different reason...

> To: Shals2nd"s Display Name <shals2nd@...>
> From: main@shalstest.groups.io Notification <main@shalstest.groups.io>
> Subject: [shalstest] File /Never had a folder before./0-stories.txt uploaded

You knew I had to try it.

Ok, fixed for realz now.

Thanks,
Mark