moderated Notify Members checkboxes

Hi All,

I have changed the Notify Members checkbox when uploading files so that it defaults to being unchecked, as before. I have also added new Notify Members checkboxes when adding/updating wiki pages and when uploading photos. They default to being unchecked.

I think of this as a stopgap measure until I can address the issues raised in a more complete fashion. I will work to come up with a proposal either later today or Monday.

Thanks, Mark

Mark,

that it defaults to being unchecked, as before. I have also added new
|Notify Members| checkboxes when adding/updating wiki pages and when
I know that this is just a stopgap, but the directions many commenters are pushing make this mechanism unfit for purpose. At least for my needs.

My vision for the notifications overhaul was most fundamentally that I, as a group moderator, would get notification of group activity. Creating / editing content in any group area: all in. I did not anticipate that these notifications would be shared with the entire membership, and with that all the push-back that has caused.

If a member can choose not to notify me, if a group owner can decide not to allow notification of a given type of content, or of any type, then it doesn't suit the needs of a moderator who wants to actually moderate - which requires knowledge of what's being stored in the group.

Two things I think can help.

1) If the user chooses not to Notify Members, or if a Notification's hashtag controls would cause it not to be posted by email, send it to each owner/moderator by email, and/or web/app notification, regardless - subject only to that owner/moderator's Email and Notifications settings.

2) Under the same conditions, send/push it to the owner of the affected content anyway (unless it is they themselves taking the action). The concept here is to follow the precedent of Message editing, where the poster of a message is always informed of any edit. I'd like to see that concept extended to the other content a member may contribute.

Shal

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:41 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I did not anticipate that these notifications would be shared with the entire membership
This is why I've been suggesting a separate controls/options page for when and to whom each notification is emailed out in a group. I think you need to be able to control if the notification is sent to just moderators, for example. I'm with you on the wiki changes, for one. All the time I've been requesting wiki change notifications, I never dreamed they would be sent out to the whole group, just to the mods. It also depends on who in a group has permissions to do these actions (e.g., upload files). In my group, only mods can do that so there's no situation where a member can upload a file and choose not to notify. Maybe notifications should be coordinated with permissions.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Hi Shal,

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 8:41 PM Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

1) If the user chooses not to Notify Members, or if a Notification's
hashtag controls would cause it not to be posted by email, send it to
each owner/moderator by email, and/or web/app notification, regardless -
subject only to that owner/moderator's Email and Notifications settings.

Ok, so create a bunch of new per-moderator notification toggles under the 'Notifications' section of each moderator's subscription, that have to do with the various types of content on the site (ie wiki, files, photos, etc), anything we send a #-notify message about. The sending of these notifications to moderators would be independent of whether the notification ended up being sent to the group or not. The notifications to moderators would be what I'm currently sending to the groups when the 'Notify Members' checkbox is checked.

In this scenario, I would keep the newly added group notifications, along with their default-unchecked 'Notify Members' checkbox.

Is that right?

2) Under the same conditions, send/push it to the owner of the affected
content anyway (unless it is they themselves taking the action). The
concept here is to follow the precedent of Message editing, where the
poster of a message is always informed of any edit. I'd like to see that
concept extended to the other content a member may contribute.

That's like the concept of subscribing to notifications about something. The creator of the wiki page would be automatically subscribed to notifications of changes to it, with the option to unsubscribe at any time.

Thanks,
Mark

Mark,

Ok, so create a bunch of new per-moderator notification toggles under
the 'Notifications' section of each moderator's subscription, that
have to do with the various types of content on the site (ie wiki,
files, photos, etc), anything we send a #-notify message about.
Yes, I like that better than what I suggested.

The sending of these notifications to moderators would be independent
of whether the notification ended up being sent to the group or not.
The notifications to moderators would be what I'm currently sending to
the groups when the 'Notify Members' checkbox is checked.

along with their default-unchecked 'Notify Members' checkbox.

Is that right?
Yes!

I actually want to notify the group members in my social groups. In those I'd probably set "Notify Members" on by default if I could.

Probably not so much in my PTA group, but members have very little capability there (all but announcement only). All the Wiki, File and Photo content comes from the moderators.

something. The creator of the wiki page would be automatically
subscribed to notifications of changes to it, with the option to
unsubscribe at any time.
Precisely. It may make sense to subscribe any member who edits the page also.

I'd also apply it to cases where someone (a moderator perforce, I think) edits the Description and other info about their Photos, Files, and Calendar events as well. I'm not sure what to say about Database tables (maybe yes) and rows (hm...), but the principle seems to apply there too.

Shal

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 10:52 PM Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

> Ok, so create a bunch of new per-moderator notification toggles under
> the 'Notifications' section of each moderator's subscription, that
> have to do with the various types of content on the site (ie wiki,
> files, photos, etc), anything we send a #-notify message about.

Yes, I like that better than what I suggested.

Right now the following notifications are missing: delete file/photo/wiki page, close chat, add/modify/delete photo album.

1) Should I add those as notifications that group members can send when performing those actions, with Notify Members checkboxes?

2) Should those actions be included in the new per-moderator notifications?

I think also when I'm adding these new per-moderator notifications, I will add 2 per-subscriber notifications: notifications when someone likes a message, and notifications when someone posts to a chat their subscribed to, but not currently viewing.

Thanks,
Mark

Chris Jones

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 04:56 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Right now the following notifications are missing: delete file/photo/wiki page, close chat, add/modify/delete photo album.

1) Should I add those as notifications that group members can send when performing those actions, with Notify Members checkboxes?
I'm getting rather loud alarm bells now with the list of Notifications growing. I'm still mulling over the question of Notifications to Moderators but I can see that notifications to members could become contentious.

To my way of thinking with the list likely to become quite long it will be impossible for group owners (inc Moderators) to set up a one - size - fits - all notification scheme with the only balanced solution being the ability of individual members to be able to select the notifications that they want to receive from a pick list in the same way as they can select their (message) email deliveries now.

In addition, with many individuals being members of several groups if the decision is made by Owners then members will find different criteria applied in different groups when they would prefer to select notifications to meet their own individual requirements.

At the moment I cannot see a better solution to "the notification problem" than to put the decision in the hands of the recipients rather than group managers.

At the same time I, as a moderator, want or even need the ability to tidy up a Files or Photos section without generating a blizzard of notifications as a result. Left to themselves members can make an untidy and uncoordinated mess of Files and Photos and it occasionally needs moderator intervention to try to restore some sense of order. Excessively granular notification of uploads, deletions, edits (inc relocations) will just serve to generate frustration amongst a group's members so that has to be a way for a moderator to rework archive contents without triggering a notification at every turn.

A further thought about Polls; a Poll is a message with a specific question included, and as such is not a notification in the same way as an upload is. I would not want members to be able to suppress awareness of a  Poll by any means whatsoever. Choosing not to respond to a Poll is one thing; choosing not to know about it is another thing entirely. IMHO #poll-notice should not be a notification.

Chris

Bruce Bowman

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 06:41 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
A further thought about Polls; a Poll is a message with a specific question included, and as such is not a notification in the same way as an upload is. I would not want members to be able to suppress awareness of a  Poll by any means whatsoever. Choosing not to respond to a Poll is one thing; choosing not to know about it is another thing entirely. IMHO #poll-notice should not be a notification.
We do need to keep a clear view regarding which of the existing system hashtags are intrinsic to the effective operation of groups.io. We've already mentioned #cal-reminder and #cal-notice in that context, and I agree with Chris that #poll-notice (and possibly #chat-notice) are in the same category.

That said, members should continue to be allowed to mute these hashtags if they so desire.

Regards,
Bruce

I like notifications for Likes. I see no reason to allow members to notify the group for content deletions, but I do think those should go to moderators.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Chris Jones

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 02:55 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I certainly don't object, but would that be "all" likes or just those applicable to the individual member whose post has been "liked"? Either way IMHO it would have to be a notification that the individual members could switch off should they so wish as per my previous post.

I see no reason to allow members to notify the group for content deletions, but I do think those should go to moderators.
Agreed.

Chris

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 07:03 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
would that be "all" likes or just those applicable to the individual member whose post has been "liked"? Either way IMHO it would have to be a notification that the individual members could switch off should they so wish as per my previous post.
I'm assuming just the individual member and that it would be an option that could be switched off.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Mark,

2) Should those actions be included in the new per-moderator
Definitely yes.

1) Should I add those as notifications that group members can send
when performing those actions, with Notify Members checkboxes?
I'd generally say no, except add/modify photo album. And as mentioned before, for those that don't post I'd like the member whose content is affected (including deletes) to receive an off-list notice.

someone likes a message,
This one probably needs two options: notify me of any like, and notify me of a like on my content.

Given that Likes are intended as light-weight alternatives to "me too" postings, we can expect (hope?) that there would be a lot of them. This one is probably the poster child for aggregating notices.

and notifications when someone posts to a chat their subscribed to,
but not currently viewing.
That's a good idea you have they're.

Shal

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 08:27 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
This one probably needs two options: notify me of any like, and notify me of a like on my content.
Good idea.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Chris Jones

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 04:27 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
And as mentioned before, for those that don't post I'd like the member whose content is affected (including deletes) to receive an off-list notice.
<slight shudder>

Only if that notification is optional on my part as a moderator.

Two reasons; I don't want anything I do to tidy up (say) Photos to generate a blizzard of notifications (even to just one member), and I don't want to have to fend off the "why did you edit, move, delete, whatever such and such" messages that are likely to accrue as a result of a rationalisation process.

With Files and Photos counting towards a group's storage allowance then judgement over what to keep and what to discard has to rest with group moderators and territorial disputes over what material is retained and what isn't must not be encouraged, and sending members detailed notifications about what has happened to their material is, IMHO, just inviting those disputes to happen.

Chris

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 09:05 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
<slight shudder>
Totally agree with the shudder factor. I would object strongly to members being notified of any deletion of their content. That's up to moderators. Notifying them of edits to their messages is one thing; deletions is another thing altogether.  I somehow missed this and I think adding it would be a HUGE mistake.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Andy Wedge

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 05:05 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
Only if that notification is optional on my part as a moderator.
Chris,

if I understand correctly, you are suggesting that a Moderator can control whether a member can opt to receive notifications for things like photo edit/move/delete actions?  That would work for me.

Regards,
Andy

Chris Jones

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 05:15 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
if I understand correctly, you are suggesting that a Moderator can control whether a member can opt to receive notifications for things like photo edit/move/delete actions?
Not quite. My point is that a moderator should have the option of not even originating a notification, whatever the member might select. cf now; if I upload a photo I can choose to send a notification or not; I want and need (as a moderator) the ability to edit an archive without notifications being generated.

As a general rule (and this is matter of personal choice) I will announce a tidy - up before it happens, and may later identify what has been rationalised as a result, but without specifying what I may have deleted / moved / edited in the process.

Chris

Agree with Chris.

On Jun 22, 2020, at 9:31 AM, Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

﻿On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 05:15 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
if I understand correctly, you are suggesting that a Moderator can control whether a member can opt to receive notifications for things like photo edit/move/delete actions?
Not quite. My point is that a moderator should have the option of not even originating a notification, whatever the member might select. cf now; if I upload a photo I can choose to send a notification or not; I want and need (as a moderator) the ability to edit an archive without notifications being generated.

As a general rule (and this is matter of personal choice) I will announce a tidy - up before it happens, and may later identify what has been rationalised as a result, but without specifying what I may have deleted / moved / edited in the process.

Chris

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

billsf9c

> I think also when I'm adding these new per-moderator notifications, I will add 2 per-subscriber notifications: notifications when someone likes a message, and notifications when someone posts to a chat their subscribed to, but not currently viewing.
Mark

This and now and then, I remember an eGroups function, called, 'Traffic.'

Rather than see Likes, etc, a month of data was given to include a bar hraph, about the posts. What posts drew 73% of the members viewership, 42, 18, whatever... was a main aspect. Which pisters derw what Reply-count or caused a Topus repky count if repkies were to their original or not. Mods can use this to really see what trends are of more interest, (who to make a mod,) and divide their research/work/support, proportionately, to drive list quality and audience appreciation.

Like databases, which I liked, (and for which I developed tricks to extend the 10 column limits etc,) few owners made use of it, so it was dropped. But I even sometimes pointed out to membership what seemed popular. They seemed to make use of it to join in or support their 'causes' more ardantly.

I'd hope you wouldn't develope it and give it only to Enterprises, but truely, no Enterprise should be without it.

BillSF9c

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 11:57 AM billsf9c via groups.io <OOWONBS=Netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:

Rather than see Likes, etc, a month of data was given to include a bar hraph, about the posts. What posts drew 73% of the members viewership, 42, 18, whatever... was a main aspect.

I don't anticipate adding something like this, as it'd require tracking pixels on the emails we send out. Which I'm not a fan of.

Mark