Topics

moderated Rejecting messages without a subject line #suggestion


 

On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 09:24 AM, Bart Fried wrote:
Subjects should be required. Especially in a group or forum
As they are. The suggestion in this thread has nothing to do with group messages. It is about messages going only to the owner/moderators of a group. Group members don't even receive such messages, so there's no issue with sending a subject-less email blast; and on top of that, messages to owners may come from non-group members so should not be subject to group restrictions or requirements - there's no such agreement or contract yet with the sender.

My group goes beyond the already existing groups.io requirement that group messages have subjects, and even requires that the subject contain the cat's name and other data. Messages coming from possible non-members with questions about the group, and going only to group owners, are a horse of a different hue and I would not want to bounce them if they simply lack a subject line.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Bart Fried
 

Of course Subjects should be required. Especially in a group or forum ... otherwise how does one know if they are opening a Topcical or OFF TOPIC item? There are enough other time-sucks in the world. This is an easy one to fix.

Bart Fried


 

Yes! Was definitely riffing on him. You got it! 😻


On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 2:31 PM Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:
On 5/24/2020 14:13, J_Catlady wrote:
On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 10:26 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
I think divining intent from semantics is a perilous business, in particular when there are multiple plausible intents.
Divining intent is a perilous matter
When multiple plausible meanings exist.
Some people may just mean to clean up their chatter
But just by pure chance they make others quite pissed.

--
J

Are you riffing T.S. Eliot's The Naming of Cats? If so, I approve.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

Virus-free. www.avast.com


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Glenn Glazer
 

On 5/24/2020 14:13, J_Catlady wrote:
On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 10:26 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
I think divining intent from semantics is a perilous business, in particular when there are multiple plausible intents.
Divining intent is a perilous matter
When multiple plausible meanings exist.
Some people may just mean to clean up their chatter
But just by pure chance they make others quite pissed.

--
J

Are you riffing T.S. Eliot's The Naming of Cats? If so, I approve.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

Virus-free. www.avast.com


 

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 10:26 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
I think divining intent from semantics is a perilous business, in particular when there are multiple plausible intents.
Divining intent is a perilous matter
When multiple plausible meanings exist.
Some people may just mean to clean up their chatter
But just by pure chance they make others quite pissed.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Glenn Glazer
 

I think divining intent from semantics is a perilous business, in particular when there are multiple plausible intents.

Some people may intend to start a new thread by changing the subject line.
Some people may intend to just clean up automated reply/forward annotations.
Some people may intend to acknowledge that the subject of the conversation has mutated while preserving the chain to the earlier subject (the thread has forked).
Some people may intend to just add or remove a hashtag.

None of those are more right or more wrong than the others, just different use cases. Asserting that only one of them is what all writers have in mind strikes me as not very universal.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Dave Wade
 

Folks,

If you change the subject line you probably intend to start a new thread. The problem is when you mail client changes the subject.

In the past, but perhaps not on ”groups.io”  I have seen mails that have acquired a while string of “RE: AW: RE: AW:” as mails ping pong between a user with a German language and an English language client.

Dave

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Malcolm Austen
Sent: 23 May 2020 17:31
To: main@beta.groups.io Calendar <main@beta.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [beta] Rejecting messages without a subject line #suggestion

 

On 23/05/2020 17:25:59, ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 05:05 PM, Malcolm Austen wrote:


> Emails are (or should be) threaded on the basis of the threading headers,
> not on the basis of the subject line.

I disagree. If you change the subjectline, it's your intention to create a new thread.

Malcolm Austen: 

 

I argue the converse. If you want to start a new topic, you should compose a new message. It should be permissible to correct a typo in the subject line without starting a new topic.

 

Malcolm.


Malcolm Austen
 

On 23/05/2020 17:36:39, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

This has been hashed and rehashed an rerehashed in the past and the decision was made to thread topics based on subject line as well, because sometimes they were not threading correctly otherwise. I think that was the right decision and it should stay as is. This is going off on a tangent .
Malcolm Austen: 
Indeed.
I thought the question was asked as to how messages can be threaded correctly if they have no subject line.
I attempted to answer that in such a case they can be threaded correctly by means of the threading headers.

Malcolm.


 

This has been hashed and rehashed an rerehashed in the past and the decision was made to thread topics based on subject line as well, because sometimes they were not threading correctly otherwise. I think that was the right decision and it should stay as is. This is going off on a tangent .


On May 23, 2020, at 9:31 AM, Malcolm Austen <malcolm.austen@...> wrote:



On 23/05/2020 17:25:59, ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 05:05 PM, Malcolm Austen wrote:


> Emails are (or should be) threaded on the basis of the threading headers,
> not on the basis of the subject line.

I disagree. If you change the subjectline, it's your intention to create a new thread.
Malcolm Austen: 

I argue the converse. If you want to start a new topic, you should compose a new message. It should be permissible to correct a typo in the subject line without starting a new topic.

Malcolm.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Malcolm Austen
 

On 23/05/2020 17:25:59, ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 05:05 PM, Malcolm Austen wrote:


> Emails are (or should be) threaded on the basis of the threading headers,
> not on the basis of the subject line.

I disagree. If you change the subjectline, it's your intention to create a new thread.
Malcolm Austen: 

I argue the converse. If you want to start a new topic, you should compose a new message. It should be permissible to correct a typo in the subject line without starting a new topic.

Malcolm.


ro-esp
 

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 05:05 PM, Malcolm Austen wrote:


Emails are (or should be) threaded on the basis of the threading headers,
not on the basis of the subject line.
I disagree. If you change the subjectline, it's your intention to create a new thread.

Also, I don't want to copy one of the worst parts of googlegroups:
if you send a reply to a digest about subject A, and then send a reply to the same digest about subject B, the second message is threaded as subject A, and sent with the subjectline A ..

groetjes/ĝis, Ronaldo


 

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 08:39 AM, Thomas Gruber wrote:
That‘s not a groups.io thing really,
My point was not that it's a groups.io thing. My point was that there may have been no relationship established yet, so it doesn't seem appropriate to me to slap them on the wrist ("please don't send emails without subjects") for not including a subject, or worse yet, bounce their email.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 08:39 AM, Thomas Gruber wrote:
Or if you want to be really generous, a warning reply - like „please don‘t send emails without subject“
I think even that is too much if a relationship has not yet been established. People DO send blank emails to subscribe, unsubscribe, etc. It's not standard practice or in any way required that all emails have subject lines.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Malcolm Austen
 

On 23/05/2020 16:43:24, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 11:05 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
Emails are (or should be) threaded on the basis of the threading headers...
Not always. See https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/6321
Malcolm Austen: 
Yes Bruce, there are extra possibilities. The point I intended to make was that even if there is no subject line, messages can be correctly threaded by means of the email headers.

Malcolm.


Bruce Bowman
 

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 11:05 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
Emails are (or should be) threaded on the basis of the threading headers...
Not always. See https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/6321

Bruce


Thomas Gruber
 

Hi,
If they can send emails then they should be able to enter a subject. That‘s not a groups.io thing really, that‘s just good behavior in email traffic. I think a rejection is appropriate. And if I was a group owner I also wouldn’t want to receive emails without subject.
Or if you want to be really generous, a warning reply - like „please don‘t send emails without subject“ - and accept the message anyway. 
Thomas

Am 23.05.2020 um 17:11 schrieb J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...>:

Given the bouncing if sent via email, I feel even more strongly that owner messages without a subject should be allowed. These are potentially coming from people completely unfamiliar with the group or even groups.io.

However, I agree that the issue of hashtags qualifying as subjects in group messages needs to be fixed.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Given the bouncing if sent via email, I feel even more strongly that owner messages without a subject should be allowed. These are potentially coming from people completely unfamiliar with the group or even groups.io.

However, I agree that the issue of hashtags qualifying as subjects in group messages needs to be fixed.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Malcolm Austen
 

On Sat, 23 May 2020 15:54:07 +0100, Bruce Bowman <@BruceBowman> wrote:

Topics are supposed to have subjects. Not sure how the threading algorithm is supposed to work without one.
Emails are (or should be) threaded on the basis of the threading headers, not on the basis of the subject line.

Malcolm.

--
Malcolm Austen <@malcolma>


Bruce Bowman
 

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 10:39 AM, Duane wrote:
Unfortunately, a hashtag on the subject line is enough to allow it to be accepted.
Yep...a source of annoyance for me.

Topics are supposed to have subjects. Not sure how the threading algorithm is supposed to work without one.

Regards,
Bruce


 

Very good point.


On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 7:39 AM Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 09:17 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
For those asking for clarification: It's not really that the message gets rejected in the usual sense, because it is not even allowed to be submitted without a subject.
This would be for online submissions.  If sent via email, the message is actually bounced with the message "500 This message is missing a subject. Please include a subject and send it again."  Unfortunately, a hashtag on the subject line is enough to allow it to be accepted.

Duane


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu