Topics

moderated New notifications proposal #misc


 

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 01:20 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
users can check a box to turn a hashtag into a web/app notification.
I was so late to this party that the above just struck me. I didn't realize, until looking more closely at my group's hashtag page just now, where I was at first perplexed to see that they ALL have the notification box, that you can now get push notifications for any hashtag. This is WAY more brilliant than I thought. Kudos, Mark.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Test notification worked.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 02:56 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I double-click on FF in the dock, it no longer allows me to open a new window from there.
I fixed this. Now I'm all set!
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 03:03 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
because it is set to not remember history

Or the real reason(?), "because it is set to private browsing." It's tricky because it seems that in FF, removing the "always private browsing" setting disallows "never remember history." So I'm not sure what's the most proximate cause of the failure.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Mark,
If it's possible for groups.io to do, Ii.e., if the information is available, I would change "not available in this browser" statement to "not available in this browser because it is set to not remember history" if that's the case. This took several days to figure out and at various points, I was ready to give up and thought, ok, I just can't have notifications, so forget about it.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Andy Wedge
 

Hi Shal,

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:12 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
 

I agree that the bell icon is a commonly used method of altering users to notifications. I'm not sure it that would be classed as a push notification though ...
 
Correct, it is not the push notification - that's something separate.

Yes, it was sort of a rhetorical statement/question.

 

 
Presumably in the mobile app the push notifications would go to the device's notification display mechanism, whatever that is.
 
I would hope so too. The notifications from the mobile Chrome and Firefox browsers I have on my phone show in the same manner as all the other apps I have. Interestingly, if I login using the default Samsung mobile browser (Internet) and enable notifications for that, it gets listed as Android - Chrome on my Account > Notifications screen.

Cheers,
Andy


 

Thomas,

Yes, that was it! I had History set to "never remember history," which did not allow me to use custom settings for history. I instead checked "use custom settings" and sure enough, it had "always private" checked, which I unchecked. Now I can enable Notifications here. So it seems that in order to use groups.io notifications in FF, you have to enable history, at least in the current incarnation?

Unfortunately, though, doing this made it so that when I double-click on FF in the dock, it no longer allows me to open a new window from there.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 02:47 PM, Thomas Gruber wrote:
the setting for always opening in private mode is here:
Thanks!!!! I thought I looked in every possible setting, but did not see that one. I'm again wondering whether the problem is my antique MacOS. I'll look again now.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 02:45 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
The only options in Firefox I checked were:
Thanks but that presupposes that groups.io even made the request, which, in my case, it didn't and is not listed there.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Thomas Gruber
 

Hi J,
the setting for always opening in private mode is here:
Open Menu - Options - Privacy & Security
scroll down to History
select „use custom settings for history“ - there’s a check box „Always use private browsing mode“. uncheck that - I would assume it’s checked for you

That should stop the automatic private browsing and then also allow notifications.
Thomas


Am 17.06.2020 um 23:35 schrieb J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...>:

Thomas,
Thanks! This restriction needs to be in the documentation!!! I'll try to get out of private windows and see what happens.


On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 2:33 PM Thomas Gruber <computerhusky@...> wrote:
hi J
1. + 3.: I think they’re not relevant for notifications. I tried popup blocker on or off in my Firefox, and notifications worked in both cases. I haven’t tested  „do not track“ but that shouldn’t really affect notifications.
2. - YES! I just tested it - when I use private browsing, the notification settings page says „notifications are not supported in this browser“. When I use not private, it works.

No idea why your Firefox always starts in private mode.
Kind regards
Thomas


Am 17.06.2020 um 23:21 schrieb J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...>:

In the cogniscenti's esteemed opinions here, could any of the following be what's making groups.io say that my Firefox browser doesn't support notifications?

1. In my FF privacy settings, "Send websites a “Do Not Track” signal that you don’t want to be tracked" is set to "Always"
2. I always use private windows in Firefox, for some reason (when I open a new window, it automatically is a private window - for some reason, I can't easily figure out how to change this, but could figure it out if this could be the issue)
3. Block pop-up windows is enabled (actually I tried unchecking that but it had no effect, so this one is doubtful)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu





--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



Andy Wedge
 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 10:21 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
In the cogniscenti's esteemed opinions here, could any of the following be what's making groups.io say that my Firefox browser doesn't support notifications?
The only options in Firefox I checked were:



Apart from the Firefox config change to ensure the notifications were passed to the Windows Action Centre I haven't made changes.

Andy


 

Thomas,
Thanks! This restriction needs to be in the documentation!!! I'll try to get out of private windows and see what happens.


On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 2:33 PM Thomas Gruber <computerhusky@...> wrote:
hi J
1. + 3.: I think they’re not relevant for notifications. I tried popup blocker on or off in my Firefox, and notifications worked in both cases. I haven’t tested  „do not track“ but that shouldn’t really affect notifications.
2. - YES! I just tested it - when I use private browsing, the notification settings page says „notifications are not supported in this browser“. When I use not private, it works.

No idea why your Firefox always starts in private mode.
Kind regards
Thomas


Am 17.06.2020 um 23:21 schrieb J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...>:

In the cogniscenti's esteemed opinions here, could any of the following be what's making groups.io say that my Firefox browser doesn't support notifications?

1. In my FF privacy settings, "Send websites a “Do Not Track” signal that you don’t want to be tracked" is set to "Always"
2. I always use private windows in Firefox, for some reason (when I open a new window, it automatically is a private window - for some reason, I can't easily figure out how to change this, but could figure it out if this could be the issue)
3. Block pop-up windows is enabled (actually I tried unchecking that but it had no effect, so this one is doubtful)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Thomas Gruber
 

hi J
1. + 3.: I think they’re not relevant for notifications. I tried popup blocker on or off in my Firefox, and notifications worked in both cases. I haven’t tested  „do not track“ but that shouldn’t really affect notifications.
2. - YES! I just tested it - when I use private browsing, the notification settings page says „notifications are not supported in this browser“. When I use not private, it works.

No idea why your Firefox always starts in private mode.
Kind regards
Thomas


Am 17.06.2020 um 23:21 schrieb J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...>:

In the cogniscenti's esteemed opinions here, could any of the following be what's making groups.io say that my Firefox browser doesn't support notifications?

1. In my FF privacy settings, "Send websites a “Do Not Track” signal that you don’t want to be tracked" is set to "Always"
2. I always use private windows in Firefox, for some reason (when I open a new window, it automatically is a private window - for some reason, I can't easily figure out how to change this, but could figure it out if this could be the issue)
3. Block pop-up windows is enabled (actually I tried unchecking that but it had no effect, so this one is doubtful)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



 

In the cogniscenti's esteemed opinions here, could any of the following be what's making groups.io say that my Firefox browser doesn't support notifications?

1. In my FF privacy settings, "Send websites a “Do Not Track” signal that you don’t want to be tracked" is set to "Always"
2. I always use private windows in Firefox, for some reason (when I open a new window, it automatically is a private window - for some reason, I can't easily figure out how to change this, but could figure it out if this could be the issue)
3. Block pop-up windows is enabled (actually I tried unchecking that but it had no effect, so this one is doubtful)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Bruce Bowman
 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 01:12 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
The push notification appears as a transitory pop-up. Now that I've finally enabled it, it shows in the lower right corner of my primary desktop window, above the time and date in the tool bar (the same place new mail notifications from Thunderbird appear). The pop-up appears regardless of whether my browser has focus at the time.
Aha! So I was confused (which is not surprising).

I was looking for the notification to arrive in the browser toolbar. Instead, it arrives in the desktop taskbar.

Having turned on notifications in both places, I am now receiving them.

Thanks Shal,
Bruce


Michael Pavan
 

Please add 1 simple switch for Group Owners to turn off all hashtags.

All this #hashtag stuff is fine for those that want them, but let it be an opt-in, rather than impose them.


 

Andy,


I agree that the bell icon is a commonly used method of altering users to notifications. I'm not sure it that would be classed as a push notification though ...

Correct, it is not the push notification - that's something separate.

The push notification appears as a transitory pop-up. Now that I've finally enabled it, it shows in the lower right corner of my primary desktop window, above the time and date in the tool bar (the same place new mail notifications from Thunderbird appear). The pop-up appears regardless of whether my browser has focus at the time. (Firefox under Win10). Your mileage may vary with different browsers or operating systems. Maybe also depending on where you have the tool bar docked.

The bell list, or notifications merged into messages list, is a UI feature for finding current and prior notifications.

In a typical "bell" list there's a visual cue for which events you've "seen" and which you haven't. That's functionality that doesn't currently exist in the Messages list, except by the incidental link coloring done for visited pages (which uses browser history to distinguish seen from unseen). But that functionality is a long-standing request that Mark has often mentioned in conjunction with the notification overhaul.

Aren't these initial changes part of an overhaul that paves the way for release of the long-awaited mobile apps?

That's my understanding: this is the web version of functionality to be added to the mobile app betas. Presumably in the mobile app the push notifications would go to the device's notification display mechanism, whatever that is.

Shal


Andy Wedge
 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 08:34 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
With the "bell" display pattern I think one in the top-bar that shows a sum over all memberships, plus one in the left nav pane (just above or below Messages) for those specific to a given group, would be good.
I agree that the bell icon is a commonly used method of altering users to notifications. I'm not sure it that would be classed as a push notification though and it probably wouldn't be the attention grabber (especially on mobile devices) that it seems was the intention. Aren't these initial changes part of an overhaul that paves the way for release of the long-awaited mobile apps?

Regards,
Andy


 

Mark,

In #25296 you wrote:
There is more work to be done with the notifications overhaul, including adding a whole bunch more notifications and figuring out where those notifications should live. I will continue that discussion in the New notifications proposal topic that Shal most recently responded to last night.

And in #25323 you wrote:
I think the biggest thing left to figure out about notifications is where they should appear.

I was originally envisioning a separate list of compact notification items, click one to be taken to the relevant action. Similar to that seen on other sites:
   
And yes, I recognize the irony of citing "f" after declaring them a non sequitur. In my defense that Notification UI seems to be in common on many sites. In terms of ease of learning and use there's something to be said for adopting a UI pattern that is likely to be already familiar to users. So long as it accomplishes what you need / want.

That was before you proposed the idea of merging notifications with messages and the hashtag mechanism. Putting what's essentially a replica of the email notification into the group's Messages list is a completely different point of view. It has some advantages, such as being an obvious springboard for discussion. Again the already existing example of events from the calendar: birthday and anniversary events are very popular conversation starters in my "social" groups.

The hashtag-based UI controls may be compatible the "bell" notification display. While notifications by email are perforce email messages with a Subject text and a body text, the items in the Notification list on the web could be pared down to the bare essential text needed to convey the information, and the entire area of the list item be a link to a relevant place (which would depend on what the notice is about).  It may not be needed or even desirable to have the text of the hashtag be part of the notification item.

With the "bell" display pattern I think one in the top-bar that shows a sum over all memberships, plus one in the left nav pane (just above or below Messages) for those specific to a given group, would be good.

With the "merged into messages" display pattern I think I would still want an easy to find a control ("filter") to select for display both messages (member content) and notifications, or only one or the other.

This will take at least one night's sleep to consider.

Shal


 

Hi Mark,

Sorry for the late and lengthy reply.

We've already got this mix of messages and notifications. What that
also means is that the message archive is also the activity feed for
the group, the place where a member can go to see everything that has
happened in the group ...
I may not be the best person to speak to this point, as I primarily keep up with my groups via email. Someone who primarily uses the web pages might have an opinion about whether it is best to see these all in one list, or in separate lists. I always agitate for message filters, so maybe for this too...

I do suspect that having additional notifications mixed into groups' messages section will strongly amplify the call for an ability for a member to see the group's messages with muting/following choices applied. I don't happen to like how that's handled in the home ("Your Groups") pages, I'd prefer it be a remembered filter checkbox in the Messages and Topics pages, but again I might not be the best to speak to this affordance.

For better or worse, this is also how Facebook Groups is structured.
"Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated."
-- Nomad

I think the concept of an activity feed is important for the group,
and if we end up pulling all the notifications out of the message
archive, then I think we would need to create a new activity feed view
somewhere.
I thought that was exactly what was intended. Together with a new home page for Notifications across all of a member's groups, parallel with the Topics pages (but without the need for the All, Muted, and Followed sub-pages). Also, a nit: calling it an "activity feed" instead of Notifications throws a red flag for me, in that overloads with the existing group Activity page under Admin.

As a unified list, it starts to break the names "Messages" and "Topics" for those pages - while the notifications are generally a consequence of some user activity, I've never thought of them as part of the group's ongoing discussion. I've always felt that the calendar and file upload notices be mixed into the group's user messages was kind of a kludge, done that way because we had no other way (tiptoeing around the "because Yahoo did it that way" precedent).

But you make a compelling case that the example we have of calendar reminders and notices (and file uploads) isn't terrible. At least not for calendar events. In fact I have found it useful to have the calendar messages prompt conversations in my groups.

In those cases the posting in the group is not obligatory: the person creating the calendar event decides whether reminders and notices are to be sent, as does the person uploading the file. Maybe that does make sense for new types too. Some files, some photos, some wiki pages, deserve to prompt group discussion, some don't.

I do know, that as a moderator, I want email notification of such things (calendar event creation, file & photo upload, wiki page creation / edit -- the whole gamut of member activity) regardless of whether the person taking the action chooses to announce it to the group.

As an experienced (and content-greedy) member, I'd also want the notifications for file uploads (and the new notifications) regardless of the opinion of the person who took the action. But I don't know how to do that while preserving the "Notify Members" function (specifically the default of not checking that box). Maybe that's an Advanced Preferences subscription option, to see all activity notifications and not just those that were marked "Notify Members".

I've added a new list view to the group hashtag page, and that
preference is remembered automatically.
I like it very much, thank you.

I'm definitely open to suggestions for how to better structure that
page should we go the hashtags-for-notifications route,
Maybe filter checkboxes to select whether Topic hashtags or Notification hashtags are to be selected for display. The default case (neither checked) would display them all. I'd like to move away from the Members list method (drop-list button to select the list filtering).

The hashtags for notifications route doesn't seem too terrible, given some tools mentioned above for controlling them. I haven't thought about how the various hashtag options a group owner can apply might be useful or problematic when applied to notification hashtags. There's a lot of power there, and maybe a few razor-blade edges to put guards on.

Shal
(glad I got back around to this while it is still daylight)