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moderated Make Sticky Topic show at top of Messages view #suggestion


 

It’s not my group and I have no idea why it’s done that way. My point is that this is just one legitimate use of stickies *as topics*, which is, after all, how the feature was implemented and has stood for years, and there no doubt other legitimate uses of *sticky topics* that don’t necessarily conform to an abra cadabra transformation to *sticky messages.” Sticky messages and sticky topics are different beasts. It’s not my job to defend this or any other group owner who has learned to use sticky topics (which is the feature - not sticky messages), or to figure out why they use the sticky topic (not sticky message) feature the way they do. I’m simply pointing out that there are use cases that the majority here in this circumscribed conversation may not be thinking about. 

If a sticky message feature is going to be implemented, it should probably be distinct from sticky topics. E.g., an individual message could be chosen as a sticky. It would not be restricted to first messages of topics. To turn every first message of a sticky topic into a sticky message is not what I would think of as a sticky message feature. I’d want to be able to pick out individual important messages. 


On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:46 PM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 07:00 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
about 20 stickies, all important and warranted
Is there some reason they can't be combined into fewer?  Seems like if there's that much stuff they want to bring to members attention, a monthly reminder (or a calendar event more often) containing all of them would be better.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 07:00 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
about 20 stickies, all important and warranted
Is there some reason they can't be combined into fewer?  Seems like if there's that much stuff they want to bring to members attention, a monthly reminder (or a calendar event more often) containing all of them would be better.

Duane


 

ps I know of at least one group (not mine) that has about 20 stickies, all important and warranted, and will probably not be happy with the change. Important to remember that not all users are in beta and some might be pretty shocked by the change if it’s forced on them and not made optional.


On Aug 25, 2020, at 4:41 PM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

“Judicious” to you is “stingy” to others and vice versa. As users we got used to being able to thumb through the Messages view without any obstacles. And there’s nothing wrong with that. We adjust, as you say, to the feature. Sort of like bees adapting to flowers. Now you’re going to change the flower. It doesn’t mean the bee’s behavior in respond to the original flower was in any way “injudicious.”

I can live with this change provided that only the first message in any sticky topic is affected. That doesn’t mean I like it, and I would still prefer that it be an option. I like my Messages view straight-up, no twist.


On Aug 25, 2020, at 3:43 PM, Marv Waschke <marv@...> wrote:

I'm also in favor of consistency. I observe that when a change like this is made, user behavior changes also: moderators will get better at trimming top-heavy clusters of stickies and become more judicious about declaring a message sticky. Note to Mark: if you're not thinking about a way to put a hash table on the sticky flag, you might consider that a hash can work performance wonders pulling sparse rows from a large table.
Best, Marv

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

“Judicious” to you is “stingy” to others and vice versa. As users we got used to being able to thumb through the Messages view without any obstacles. And there’s nothing wrong with that. We adjust, as you say, to the feature. Sort of like bees adapting to flowers. Now you’re going to change the flower. It doesn’t mean the bee’s behavior in respond to the original flower was in any way “injudicious.”

I can live with this change provided that only the first message in any sticky topic is affected. That doesn’t mean I like it, and I would still prefer that it be an option. I like my Messages view straight-up, no twist.


On Aug 25, 2020, at 3:43 PM, Marv Waschke <marv@...> wrote:

I'm also in favor of consistency. I observe that when a change like this is made, user behavior changes also: moderators will get better at trimming top-heavy clusters of stickies and become more judicious about declaring a message sticky. Note to Mark: if you're not thinking about a way to put a hash table on the sticky flag, you might consider that a hash can work performance wonders pulling sparse rows from a large table.
Best, Marv

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Marv Waschke
 

I'm also in favor of consistency. I observe that when a change like this is made, user behavior changes also: moderators will get better at trimming top-heavy clusters of stickies and become more judicious about declaring a message sticky. Note to Mark: if you're not thinking about a way to put a hash table on the sticky flag, you might consider that a hash can work performance wonders pulling sparse rows from a large table.
Best, Marv


 

Walking that back: I think that would be ok. 😊


On Aug 25, 2020, at 2:32 PM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I’m not sure I understand how the message order would look in that case. You’d have message #1 of a sticky topic separated from Message #s 2-n of that tophc by Message #1.of the second sticky topic, Message #1 of the third sticky topic, etc? That almost seems worse.


On Aug 25, 2020, at 1:49 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:51 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Good idea about making it an option! I’m not sure people realize the ramifications of this change. If a group has, say, 3-5 sticky topics (and many groups have more), with 3-5 messages per topic (again, many have more), the messages list will be top-heavy with about a dozen, and possibly even dozens, of messages to have to manually get through before finally reaching current messages.

If/when I implement this, I would only display the first message in a sticky topic.

Cheers,
Mark 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

I’m not sure I understand how the message order would look in that case. You’d have message #1 of a sticky topic separated from Message #s 2-n of that tophc by Message #1.of the second sticky topic, Message #1 of the third sticky topic, etc? That almost seems worse.


On Aug 25, 2020, at 1:49 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:51 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Good idea about making it an option! I’m not sure people realize the ramifications of this change. If a group has, say, 3-5 sticky topics (and many groups have more), with 3-5 messages per topic (again, many have more), the messages list will be top-heavy with about a dozen, and possibly even dozens, of messages to have to manually get through before finally reaching current messages.

If/when I implement this, I would only display the first message in a sticky topic.

Cheers,
Mark 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:51 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Good idea about making it an option! I’m not sure people realize the ramifications of this change. If a group has, say, 3-5 sticky topics (and many groups have more), with 3-5 messages per topic (again, many have more), the messages list will be top-heavy with about a dozen, and possibly even dozens, of messages to have to manually get through before finally reaching current messages.

If/when I implement this, I would only display the first message in a sticky topic.

Cheers,
Mark 


 

Duane is exactly.right. The only way to avoid what would be a fiasco for some groups is to avoid using stickies altogether. And I like stickies. :-) I not want to be forced into not using them by this change.


On Aug 25, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:34 PM, Ro wrote:
I prefer NOT to have the messages sticky.
If the owner/mod doesn't make any stickies, there wouldn't be any on any view.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:34 PM, Ro wrote:
I prefer NOT to have the messages sticky.
If the owner/mod doesn't make any stickies, there wouldn't be any on any view.

Duane


 

Good idea about making it an option! I’m not sure people realize the ramifications of this change. If a group has, say, 3-5 sticky topics (and many groups have more), with 3-5 messages per topic (again, many have more), the messages list will be top-heavy with about a dozen, and possibly even dozens, of messages to have to manually get through before finally reaching current messages. I myself will feel it’s best stop using stickies in my group if this comes to pass, failing cutting down each sticky topic to 1-2 messages, which is impractical for our group and the way we use stickies (namely, for important conversations, some of them extended -  not just individual messages).

The usefulness or, conversely, inconvenience of the revised feature will depend in large part on how the individuak groups have grown to use stickies currently - understanding, and coming to rely on, the fact that the messages list has not so far been burdened with this display order. And that’s why making the change an option would be a good idea. 

Either way I hope this will be very well thought out before a final implementation decision is made.

 Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:34 AM, Ro <recarlton@...> wrote:

Perhaps this can be made a user option. I prefer NOT to have the messages sticky.  But for those that do. It ca be an option in settings

Ro

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Ro
 

Perhaps this can be made a user option. I prefer NOT to have the messages sticky.  But for those that do. It ca be an option in settings

Ro


 

Hi All,

I am in favor of this change, but it will require a decent amount of work to implement. (Nerdy details: efficiently paging through a very large database table, like the messages table with its 164M rows), is difficult as is. Add in the fact that the sticky bit is set on a different table. That means for me to make this work at scale will require some sort of caching or materialized view which doesn't exist right now).

So unfortunately it may be awhile before it's done.

Thanks,
Mark


 

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 04:02 PM, Epicatt2 wrote:
Such a problem as you suggest just above, Catlady, would not be the case were the the 'sticky' option in Message view only be permitted for use by the moderators
Right, but what "option"? The request is that Messages view be subject to sticky order, period. For my group and some others, that would ruin Messages view and render it practically useless (or render stickies useless, one or the other). I would not be opposed to an option, but an option is not what's being proposed here.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Epicatt2
 

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 04:46 PM, J_Catlady wrote:


If you do that, it’s going to take scrolling through multiple pages to get
past the sticky messages in some groups I know of.
== ==

Such a problem as you suggest just above, Catlady, would not be the case were the the 'sticky' option in Message view only be permitted for use by the moderators and owner(s) of a group. And it should able to be toggled on or off separately from pinned messages on the Topics view.

Of course it's also important that the moderators/owners make sure to un-pin those posts whose immediacy has been served and thus avoid the excessive clutter that you are concerned about.

Just FWIW . . .

Regards,

Paul M.
Owner, CostaRicaLiving
==


 

If you do that, it’s going to take scrolling through multiple pages to get past the sticky messages in some groups I know of. Thst is going to be a PITA.

On Aug 16, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Epicatt2 <stanhopi@...> wrote:

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 12:41 PM, Steve wrote:


I'll add my "voice" to have the "sticky" option to also apply to the "Messages"
view. This would make it so much easier for me to keep important items in
front of the group, almost all of whom use the "Messages" view,
== ==
I'm also in agreement with having the 'sticky' option apply to 'Messages' as well as to 'Topics'.

In addition, I can see how that 'sticky' option might help to fill the gap left by 'Special Notices' for those members who are set to 'No Email.'

Regards,

Paul M.
Owner – CostaRicaLiving @ GIO
==


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Epicatt2
 

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 12:41 PM, Steve wrote:


I'll add my "voice" to have the "sticky" option to also apply to the "Messages"
view. This would make it so much easier for me to keep important items in
front of the group, almost all of whom use the "Messages" view,
== ==
I'm also in agreement with having the 'sticky' option apply to 'Messages' as well as to 'Topics'.

In addition, I can see how that 'sticky' option might help to fill the gap left by 'Special Notices' for those members who are set to 'No Email.'

Regards,

Paul M.
Owner – CostaRicaLiving @ GIO
==


 

I'll add my "voice" to have the "sticky" option to also apply to the "Messages" view. This would make it so much easier for me to keep important items in front of the group, almost all of whom use the "Messages" view, NOT the "Topics" view (so having a sticky only appear there, is useless for us).

If that change could be implemented, I would be "eternally" grateful and would even make a cat donation!


Duane
 

On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 09:46 AM, Bob Morley wrote:
as long as I can dismiss (hide) them once I have read them.
In which case there would need to be some sort of tracking mechanism to know if you've read the latest version.  On some groups they may never get changed, on others they may get changed as often as daily.

Duane


Bob Morley
 

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 05:31 PM, Duane wrote:
I've wondered about this when I end up in Messages view sometimes, but never pursued it since I always end up back in Topic view.  Seems that it should be consistent so the sticky shows up no matter which view a member prefers.  If they always use Messages or Expanded, they could miss some important information and wonder why.
If I may be so bold, I am OK with "Sticky's" anywhere and everywhere as long as I can dismiss (hide) them once I have read them.

--
Gerald