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moderated Messages with a hashtag using the Special attribute not sent as Special #bug


Andy Wedge
 

Hi Mark,

I have a hashtag called #Announcement defined with attributes: Special, Locked and Use by Mods only.  When I tag a message with this hashtag it is not sent as a special message. The subject does not get prefixed with [Special] and there is a Mute #Announcement link in the message footer (I thought special messages could not be muted).

Regards,
Andy


 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 09:50 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:

I have a hashtag called #Announcement defined with attributes: Special, Locked and Use by Mods only.  When I tag a message with this hashtag it is not sent as a special message.

What happened was the following:

  • You sent the message from a non-moderator account, without that hashtag. It required approved because your group is restricted.
  • When you approved the message, you added the #Announcement tag.
  • But because the message was originally sent from a non-moderator account, we ignored the special flag when the message was approved.

I have changed the policy so that if a message has been approved, we allow the use of mod-only and special hashtags, even if the message was originally sent from a non-moderator. I think this probably makes the most sense in a 'principle of least surprise' kind of way, but I'm happy to consider rolling it back if the group disagrees.

Thanks, Mark


Andy Wedge
 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 05:42 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I have changed the policy so that if a message has been approved, we allow the use of mod-only and special hashtags, even if the message was originally sent from a non-moderator.
Thanks. That's a big help for us as my co-owner and I want certain messages written by others on our club Committee to go as special messages.

Andy


Chris Jones
 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 05:42 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I think this probably makes the most sense in a 'principle of least surprise' kind of way...
Least possible surprise to whom? I suspect many (most?) Owners & Moderators would be highly surprised if members can somehow circumvent "moderator - only" capabilities.

Chris


Duane
 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 02:19 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
members can somehow circumvent "moderator - only" capabilities
Since in this case it would have to be a moderated message, and a moderator would have to add the hashtag and approve it, I think it would indeed be a moderator using it.  If I remember correctly, when a message arrives with a moderator only hashtag, it gets bounced and put into a draft until corrected.

Duane


Andy Wedge
 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 09:26 PM, Duane wrote:
If I remember correctly, when a message arrives with a moderator only hashtag, it gets bounced and put into a draft until corrected.
As an Owner, I can make all sorts of changes to a pending message before releasing it. I see effectively changing the status of the message to Special as an extension of those privileges.

Andy


Duane
 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 05:57 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
As an Owner, I can make all sorts of changes to a pending message before releasing it.
True, but if it's sent with a Moderator Only hashtag, it will never arrive in the pending area.  It will be held in the Draft area for the sender to remove it.

Duane


Andy Wedge
 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 11:30 PM, Duane wrote:
True, but if it's sent with a Moderator Only hashtag, it will never arrive in the pending area.  It will be held in the Draft area for the sender to remove it.
For a predominantly email based group, holding a message in a users' Drafts folder doesn't help me as an Owner as I won't be able to see or do anything about that. I'm guessing that the only place that may be recorded is the event log and I would have to search for that. Even if a notification was sent to Owners/Mods that this had occurred, it seems like I'd be in a position of trying to talk someone through logging in to the Groups.io site, navigating to their Drafts folder and editing a message to remove a hashtag before sending it again.  That, I fear, would generate a negative attitude towards Groups.io when we are trying to encourage the opposite.

Andy


Chris Jones
 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 06:30 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
That's a big help for us as my co-owner and I want certain messages written by others on our club Committee to go as special messages.
Having spent some time thinking about this I am fairly certain that what you want can easily be achieved without Mark changing anything, depending perhaps on exactly how many "non-moderators" you want to be able to post #Announcements sent as Special Notices. There are (on the face of it) 2 possible approaches. 

Option 1 is to make those individuals you want to be able to do the above Moderators, but without any of the "member management" permissions. That would enable them to use the moderator - only hashtags and send special notices when appropriate.

Option 2 is to have two announcement tags; #Owner_Announcement which would remain as Use by Mods Only, and #Announcement which would be available to ordinary members. #Announcement would be configured as (a) Messages with this tag will be sent as special notices, and (b) Messages with this hashtag will be moderated. This option would result in any message so tagged needing to be checked by a genuine moderator who could ensure that the feature was not being in any way misused before releasing it.

For the record I have tested Option 2 on a test group to which I have access and it seems to work perfectly well. :)

Chris


Andy Wedge
 

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 09:54 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
Option 1 is to make those individuals you want to be able to do the above Moderators, but without any of the "member management" permissions. That would enable them to use the moderator - only hashtags and send special notices when appropriate.
The downside of making other members Moderators is that they also get control over certain group features such as the Calendar and Databases etc. Not something we would want in our case.

Option 2 is to have two announcement tags; #Owner_Announcement which would remain as Use by Mods Only, and #Announcement which would be available to ordinary members. #Announcement would be configured as (a) Messages with this tag will be sent as special notices, and (b) Messages with this hashtag will be moderated.
An interesting alternative and one that could work for us. The #Announcement hashtag settings would also need the Use by Mods Only option unchecked in this case.

any message so tagged needing to be checked by a genuine moderator who could ensure that the feature was not being in any way misused before releasing it.
Agreed. Although I suspect it's easier to mistakenly approve a message with an unwanted hashtag that it is to go through the steps to add one in. Especially when working on a mobile device where small buttons and fat fingers come into play.

Regards,
Andy


Bob Bellizzi
 

I find it curious that you don't seem to trust your committee enough to make them essentially powerless moderators  and yet you want to give them a special power to essentially issue broadcast messages.
I think option 1 would work fine for you.
We have several people, classed as Mentors, who have option 1  privilege.
They are part of our second level in our nonprofit and have never violated their privileges in several years.
Either you trust people or you don't.


--

Bob Bellizzi


Andy Wedge
 

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:59 PM, Bob Bellizzi wrote:
you don't seem to trust your committee enough to make them essentially powerless moderators  and yet you want to give them a special power to essentially issue broadcast messages.
The trouble with jumping to conclusions is that you can get it wrong.  They have delegated responsibility. Just because an option works for you does not always make it suitable for others.

powerless moderators
A moderator has additional privileges so by definition they are not powerless.

We are happy with the change Mark has made so far but if it gets rolled back then we should be able to work around that with the second option mentioned by Chris. I will test it myself beforehand though.

Enough said on this I think.

Andy