Changes to the site this week:

• BUGFIX: Fixed a deadlock issue in some cases during confirmation via email.
• INTERNAL: Addressed some technical debt around the calendar code, and in the process fixed two timezone conversion bugs in ICS feeds.
• API: The message object now has an attachments array.
• BUGFIX: The your subscription is not yet approved banner was appearing one page refresh too late.
• BUGFIX: Edit buttons were missing from the Hashtags page.
• API: The docs for /createhashtag incorrectly stated that description was required.
• BUGFIX: Fix crash when sorting a database by a column that no longer exists.
• BUGFIX: The user was not being displayed in Message rejected from not confirmed member activity log lines.
• API: /downloadarchives now supports start_msg_num parameter.
• NEW: When downloading archives either through the API or through the export group function, each message now has a X-Groupsio-MsgNum header with the message number of the message.
• API: /newdraft now supports draft_type_dm.
• NEW: Include descriptions in the list of hashtags on the New Topic page.
• APP: Created new App subgroup and got approval from Apple for the first test version of the app.
• BUGFIX: If a pending member was rejected on the group member screen, they were marked as Removed in the Past Members page, when they should be marked as Rejected.
• BUGFIX: The API call /directadd wasn't returning full member_info object information.
• CHANGE: Increased concurrency of the process responsible for handling email delivery status updates because it was bottlenecking email delivery due to our ever increasing email delivery numbers.
• BUGFIX: We were not handling emails with header lines that weren't properly capitalized correctly.
• BUGFIX: Editing a malformed message imported from Yahoo that was missing a body didn't work.
• CHANGE: Removed Facebook Integration from the group Integrations page.
• NEW: Added additional checks for our DNS servers to ensure that we catch any DNS issues.
• NEW: Added new Messages that start new topics are moderated group moderation option.

Have a good weekend everyone.

Mark

Hi Mark,

• NEW: Added new Messages that start new topics are moderated group moderation option.

A small issue, when someone selects this new setting, the group's home page now shows "Posts to this group do not require approval from the moderators".

Cheers,
Christos

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:40 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:

Added new Messages that start new topics are moderated group moderation option.

I totally missed this! I have been wanting this option for ages. Thanks!
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

A question about this option:

I currently have everyone in my group set to MF by hand (except for those who are moderated, NuM, P, etc.). If I now set my group to MF, do all the MF badges go away retroactively? I could try it but I'd rather have an idea first of how this is going to work. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:40 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:

A small issue, when someone selects this new setting, the group's home page now shows "Posts to this group do not require approval from the moderators"

Agreed, a small oversight and should be changed.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 09:50 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

I currently have everyone in my group set to MF by hand (except for those who are moderated, NuM, P, etc.). If I now set my group to MF, do all the MF badges go away retroactively? I could try it but I'd rather have an idea first of how this is going to work.

On my test, the MF badge remained on the member listings.

Duane

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 07:50 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

If I now set my group to MF, do all the MF badges go away retroactively?

I just tested this in my test group and the answer is no. This is in keeping with setting a group to moderated (after it's been non-moderated) and the M members keep their "M" override badges. I understand that the "override" status in all cases is meant to be an override if and only if it actually contradicts the group setting. (The one anomaly is "P," which actually has an effect even in a non-moderated group, because it allows a P member to post unmoderated even to a moderated topic.) Bottom line, I guess I will have to go through and remove everyone's override-MF status after I change the group setting. It's a PITA now, but will be infinitely easier after this hump.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Yep, messages just crossed. :)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Ok, I've discovered a slight inconsistency (or what I feel is an inconsistency) with this: with the group is set to MF, a "P" member's first messages are moderated. That feels out of keeping with the fact that P members override moderated topics in general. I can see an argument on both sides, but in general, my "P" members are people I trust completely - co-moderators, experts, etc. - and I don't want to have to moderate any of their posts, including topics they start. That was the reasoning behind my suggestion (years ago? and subsequently implemented) for the P status to override moderated topics. No extremely strong feelings about this but it would be more convenient (and, I think, consistent and intuitive) for them to also override moderation of first messages, since they currently override moderation of moderated topics in general.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 11:51 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:40 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:

A small issue, when someone selects this new setting, the group's home page now shows "Posts to this group do not require approval from the moderators"

Agreed, a small oversight and should be changed.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

More rough edges...

Group Owners should be exempt from this. An Owner starting a new Topic either online or via email is moderated. I didn't test this for a Moderator, but presumably it happens for Moderators as well. I would prefer that it does not happen for Moderators with the permission to "approve messages...".

Here's what shows up in the Activities log.

... sent message "Does Group Owner Get Moderated if Posting Via Email" requiring approval because the group is set to moderate the first message in a topic and this message is starting a new topic via email	12:02pm
... sent message "Setting now New Topic Post is Moderated - Better not be for Owner/Mod" requiring approval because the group is set to moderate the first message in a topic and this message is starting a new topic via web

 
--
Gerald

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 08:21 AM, Gerald Boutin wrote:

Group Owners should be exempt from this. An Owner starting a new Topic either online or via email is moderated.

I VERY strongly disagree. Group owners (like myself) may be on moderation to have a chance to edit their posts. Only certain members of my group are set to "P" (which overrides moderation in general - and should also, I feel, override the group MF setting - see my last post). If group owners are exempted from MF, they should also be exempted from moderation. And that should definitely not happen. If you want an owner or mod to be exempted from moderation, set them to "P."
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Gerald,

Group Owners should be exempt from this. An Owner starting a new

Topic either online or via email is moderated.

Group Owners are indeed exempt from this (and other stuff), if they are set correctly.  It's not an issue of Owner/Mod vs Member, it's the way the individual's person setting works, the system just does its thing as it's supposed to do without caring if you are a mod or member.

You have your owner account set to "group default setting", that's why this is happening.

Change your owner (and mods') setting to "override: can always post", and your problem will go away.  That will also bring you closer to admin "best practices", as one should always want their admin stuff have all the power they need AND exercise it without any hindrance.

Cheers,
Christos

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 10:59 AM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:

Change your owner (and mods') setting to "override: can always post", and your problem will go away.

Right, or as I've been calling it, "P".
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Gerald,

Oops, mea culpa ... I wasn't aware that there was indeed a problem with MF and "P" (that's what I get by replying to something before preview-skimming the inbox first...), and your original message did not specify if you already had the "P" setting, so I wrongly assumed you had it setup to default and the code was doing the correct thing ...

I wasn't trying to imply (by any means) that you did not know what you were doing, and I hope you didn't interpret it as such!

Cheers,

Christos

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 03:58 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:

Gerald,

Oops, mea culpa ... I wasn't aware that there was indeed a problem with MF and "P" (that's what I get by replying to something before preview-skimming the inbox first...), and your original message did not specify if you already had the "P" setting, so I wrongly assumed you had it setup to default and the code was doing the correct thing ...

I wasn't trying to imply (by any means) that you did not know what you were doing, and I hope you didn't interpret it as such!

Cheers,

Christos

 

On 2020-01-18 13:59, Christos G. Psarras via Groups.Io wrote:

Gerald,

>>> Group Owners should be exempt from this. An Owner starting a new Topic either online or via email is moderated.

Group Owners are indeed exempt from this (and other stuff), if they are set correctly.  It's not an issue of Owner/Mod vs Member, it's the way the individual's person setting works, the system just does its thing as it's supposed to do without caring if you are a mod or member.

You have your owner account set to "group default setting", that's why this is happening.

Change your owner (and mods') setting to "override: can always post", and your problem will go away.  That will also bring you closer to admin "best practices", as one should always want their admin stuff have all the power they need AND exercise it without any hindrance.

Cheers,
Christos

Christos,

Implied or not, it turns out it was the case! I had not realized that the Group default applied to a Group Owner.

I have tested again with the 'P' setting and this does resolve my concern. At least I think I have it right this time.

Thanks to you and J for herding me in the right direction.





 
--
Gerald

Hi Mark,

>>> The group home page blurb has been fixed...

In retrospect I should have suggested this in my original post, but anyway, my suggestion is to change the blurb wording on MF groups from "Posts to this group that start a new topic require approval from the moderators" to something technically-correct but a bit more vague and less explicit, to possibly discourage (more) users from hijacking threads. 

For example "New topic posts require approval from the moderators", same meaning as above, technically correct but maybe not as clear to the average user, more than likely they'll either miss the "new" part, or interpret it to mean ALL posts. 

Or even have it be the same as shown currently for a moderated group, "Posts to this group require approval from the moderators", which itself is technically-correct for a moderated group but somewhat vague/less explicit to the average user, as it doesn't specify ALL posts, so therefore it could technically apply to both mod types.  Or alternatively, maybe set the MF blurb to the current less-explicit moderated group blurb, and change the moderated group blurb to be the same but explicit, i.e. add also "All" to the beginning.

It wouldn't stop the die-hard savvy users from doing it (in which case particular member moderation will take care of that), but it may prevent the average not-as-savvy user from putting 2+2 together and starting hijacking threads.

Doing so may also allay fears of the MF setting encouraging hijacking overall, and encourage more folks to use it, as IMO it's a very good compromise between fully-moderated and wide-open, i.e. least-workload moderation and message free-flow, especially for support/technical groups; moderating just the opening topic gives you all the moderation advantages moderated groups have (keeping the group focused/OnTopic/weeding out, editing, categorizing/cataloging/organizing, etc), plus all the unmoderation advantages as well, it greatly reduces moderator time & workload by allowing the subsequent conversation to flow freely, and as a bonus, it benefits online users with a live forum message flow.

Cheers,
Christos

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 02:20 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:

"Posts to this group require approval from the moderators"

I think this would be a mistake. To my ear, it clearly implies that all posts are moderated (even though you hope people will take it to mean "some posts"). I think it is absolutely fine as is, except for one detail, in both this and the statement about a moderated group: wasn't there a language decision made awhile back to use the term "message" instead of "post"?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 06:42 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 02:20 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:

"Posts to this group require approval from the moderators"

I think this would be a mistake. To my ear, it clearly implies that all posts are moderated (even though you hope people will take it to mean "some posts"). I think it is absolutely fine as is, except for one detail, in both this and the statement about a moderated group: wasn't there a language decision made awhile back to use the term "message" instead of "post"?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

I think it is most important for the wording to be technically correct and clear. Users that are going to try to cut corners often don't even bother reading the instructions. They just find the path of least resistance.
 
--
Gerald