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moderated Premium groups now have more storage, basic group subgroups change


 

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 09:39 AM, Duane wrote:
Your group(s) exist, therefore aren't subject to removal
I think I have subgroups. Therefore I am. :-)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Samuel Murrayy
 

On 14/01/2020 18:03, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
It would appear my primary stated concerns remain unresolved.
I'm not GIO staff, so I can't be 100% certain, but everything that I've read in this thread leads me to believe the following:

If your main group was created before 15 January, then you will *always* have the ability to have subgroups (and create further subgroups), regardless of whether you currently have a free or paid package, and regardless of whether you upgrade to premium later and then downgrade to free again later in future.

After 15 January, subgroups are considered a premium feature. All groups that were created before 15 January will continue to have this "premium" feature. If your main group is created after 15 January, then "subgroups" is a premium feature, i.e. it is available to main groups that pay.

As with any ongoing premium feature, whenever you downgrade to free, you lose the premium benefit. It works like this in all web services, e.g. if we take a hypothetical online storage service that offers 100 GB for a gold package, and you then downgrade to a silver package which gives you only 20 GB, then you will lose 80 GB of storage.

[Mark's comment] is my first indication that my existing subgroup established under the temporary “Premium” membership purchased to get my groups transferred from Yahoo would disappear if and when we exercised the promised option to revert to a free group...
No, look: Mark's reply was in response to my question. My question related to groups that are created after 15 January. I tried to make this clear in my question that I was not talking about groups that were created before 15 January, but I apologise if that wasn't clear.

Fact 2:  Once my main group was “up and running” I exercised my “Premium” option to create a subgroup.
No, you did not. Creating a subgroup at that time was not a "premium option". It was included in the free package. What you paid for was the transfer of your messages into the subgroup. *Creating* the subgroup was free. *Transferring* from Yahoo (into either the main group or the subgroup) was what you paid for.

The ability of a “free” group to create subgroups means nothing if one must maintain “Premium” status to preserve them.  Such subgroups should be “grandfathered”.
But they *are* grandfathered. What am I missing?

After 15 January, no free group will be able to create subgroups. Any subgroups that were created by main groups that were created before 15 January do not have to maintain "premium" status to preserve them.

Fact 4:  Of late it has been suggested that it is only a matter of time before a 1GB data limit....
...

Fact 5:   Anyone at present can create a new “free” group at any time with a 1GB data limit.  Accordingly I would ask:
_Are our respective existing 1 GB data limits “grandfathered” against retroactive change?
These are separate issues that I can't reply to.

Samuel
(not staff)


Duane
 

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 11:04 AM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
Your recent pronouncement/interpretation that a group choosing to to “revert” to “free” (non-premium) status at then end of a “Premium” period must accept deletion “after a delay to ensure that the downgrade wasn't an inadvertent mistake on the part of the group owner” raises a new concern
Your group(s) exist, therefore aren't subject to removal because they're grandfathered in.  ONLY on groups created after tomorrow morning will it have any effect, and then only on newly created ones.

Duane


txercoupemuseum.org
 


It would appear my primary stated concerns remain unresolved.

See my response, https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/23585, "So what would be the appropriate sequence and timing to (1) create a new free group to receive the information presently in a Premium subgroup such that (2) transfer of such content is not lost when exercising the option to downgrade from Premium to free status at the end of the present paid period?  Is there a way for a list owner to do such transfer within present Groups.io tools/procedures?

Mark responded, https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/23586, "Not sure I understand. You want to take an existing subgroup and make it a stand alone group? That feature doesn't presently exist.”

I responded, https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/23587, "I was responding to your statements to Samuel Murray today:

"On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 12:46 AM Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@...> wrote:

What would happen (from now on) to subgroups in groups who are premium 
for a while and then changes to non-premium?  Will it be a loophole in 
the system that you can create subgroups by paying for 1 month premium?

The subgroups will be deleted, after a delay to ensure that the downgrade wasn't an inadvertent mistake on the part of the group owner.”

Your comment above is my first indication that my existing subgroup established under the temporary “Premium” membership purchased to get my groups transferred from Yahoo would disappear if and when we exercised the promised option to revert to a free group, i.e that it would not be “grandfathered”.

As you say, that feature may not have existed because there was no need for it.  Since you now appear to have above defined a “new consideration”, my current response would seem both reasonable and appropriate.”


  <snip>

Any group that is created before this coming Wednesday at 9AM Pacific Time will continue to have the ability to create           subgroups, regardless of whether they are basic or premium. Does that answer your question?

 ~ ∞ ~ ≤÷•§•÷≥ ~ ∞ ~ <•†•> ~ ∞ ~ ≤÷•§•÷≥ ~ ∞ ~ <•†•> ~ ∞ ~ ≤÷•§•÷≥ ~ ∞ ~ <•†•> ~ ∞ ~ ≤÷• §•÷≥ ~ ∞ ~ <•†•> ~ ∞ ~
In a word, no.  I am not concerned with the ability to create subgroups being “grandfathered”.  You have made that clear.  

Your recent pronouncement/interpretation that a group choosing to to “revert” to “free” (non-premium) status at then end of a “Premium” period must accept deletion “after a delay to ensure that the downgrade wasn't an inadvertent mistake on the part of the group owner” raises a new concern, that of ongoing survivability of any subgroups thus created.  

I have been on Groups.io since November and yesterday is my first awareness of such retroactive intent.  To my knowledge this was not mentioned in earlier discussions addressing a “Premium” group’s right to revert to a “free” group.  Please consider:

Fact 1:  We who purchased a year of “premium” status to get one or more groups transferred from Yahoo were promised the option to revert to “free” status at the end of the (paid) year.
Fact 2:  Once my main group was “up and running” I exercised my “Premium” option to create a subgroup.  I then requested Groups.io transfer everything (except members) from another Yahoo Group, and made all members of the main group members of the subgroup.  Fact 3:  This subgroup transfer was done without further charge and successfully accomplished.  

For Groups.io to retroactively impose a requirement of ongoing “Premium” membership to preserve existing subgroups does not seem ethical.  The ability of a “free” group to create subgroups means nothing if one must maintain “Premium” status to preserve them.  Such subgroups should be “grandfathered”.

Fact 4:  Of late it has been suggested that it is only a matter of time before a 1GB data limit applicable to the combined “storage” of a main group AND it’s subgroups, i.e. “collectively” be imposed; the present reality of each group and each subgroup having individual 1GB data limits being the result of ongoing difficulties of implementation, . 
Fact 5:   Anyone at present can create a new “free” group at any time with a 1GB data limit.  Accordingly I would ask:

Are our respective existing 1 GB data limits “grandfathered” against retroactive change?  I am concerned that any .5 GB data ”budget" limit thus retroactively imposed on one group with a subgroup could threaten the ability of each to function in the long term.  If not, I have stated a desire to create a new “free” group with its own 1 GB data limit with the intent of moving everything presently in my existing functional subgroup to it.  That would (a) assure each group would survive, and (b) have their own 1 GB data limit.  

Alternately, perhaps another 1GB data could be made available at nominal annual expense for “free” groups needing it. 

Respectfully, 

WRB

— 


On Jan 14, 2020, at 5:32 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 05:12 AM, Samuel Murray wrote:
Do I understand correctly that if a basic group buys 1 month premium, they can create subgroups, and these subgroups do not disappear when they revert to basic again?
According to Mark's earlier statement, https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/23582, the subgroup(s) would be deleted after a short delay.  If it were me, I'd probably not allow subgroups to be created unless it was at least a one year premium upgrade.  I think that would be a better signal of intentions.  Or maybe only after a month-to-month upgrade has been in effect for 3 months or more?  I know there are some folks that can't justify an annual payment in their budget.

Duane
_._,_._,_


txercoupemuseum.org
 

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 08:16 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:07 PM txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:
 
Your comment above is my first indication that my existing subgroup established under the temporary “Premium” membership purchased to get my groups transferred from Yahoo would disappear if and when we exercised the promised option to revert to a free group, i.e that it would not be “grandfathered”.
 
Any group that is created before this coming Wednesday at 9AM Pacific Time will continue to have the ability to create subgroups, regardless of whether they are basic or premium. Does that answer your question?
 


Samuel Murrayy
 

On 14/01/2020 12:32, Duane wrote:

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 05:12 AM, Samuel Murray wrote:

Do I understand correctly that if a basic group buys 1 month premium, they can create subgroups, and these subgroups do not disappear when they revert to basic again?
According to Mark's earlier statement, https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/23582...
Aah, thanks, I haven't received that message.

Samuel


Duane
 

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 05:12 AM, Samuel Murray wrote:
Do I understand correctly that if a basic group buys 1 month premium, they can create subgroups, and these subgroups do not disappear when they revert to basic again?
According to Mark's earlier statement, https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/23582, the subgroup(s) would be deleted after a short delay.  If it were me, I'd probably not allow subgroups to be created unless it was at least a one year premium upgrade.  I think that would be a better signal of intentions.  Or maybe only after a month-to-month upgrade has been in effect for 3 months or more?  I know there are some folks that can't justify an annual payment in their budget.

Duane


Samuel Murrayy
 

On 10/01/2020 23:00, Mark Fletcher wrote:

Basic groups created after Wednesday morning, 1/15/20 at 9AM, will no longer have the ability to create subgroups.
W.r.t. basic groups created after Wednesday:

Do I understand correctly that if a basic group buys 1 month premium, they can create subgroups, and these subgroups do not disappear when they revert to basic again?

But, if a basic group buys 1 month premium, and then reverts to basic again, can they then still create subgroups even though they're no longer a premium group? Or must they upgrade to 1 month premium each time they want to create more subgroups?

Samuel


Duane
 

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 09:47 PM, Michael Chopra wrote:
Does this mean that already existing basic groups that have not created subgroups at all, will they still be able to create them after this date?
That's what the announcement says.

Duane


Michael Chopra
 

Hi. Does this mean that already existing basic groups that have not created subgroups at all, will they still be able to create them after this date?
Thanks.
From Michael.


 

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:07 PM txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:

Your comment above is my first indication that my existing subgroup established under the temporary “Premium” membership purchased to get my groups transferred from Yahoo would disappear if and when we exercised the promised option to revert to a free group, i.e that it would not be “grandfathered”.

Any group that is created before this coming Wednesday at 9AM Pacific Time will continue to have the ability to create subgroups, regardless of whether they are basic or premium. Does that answer your question?

Mark


txercoupemuseum.org
 

Hi Mark,

I was responding to your statements to Samuel Murray today:

"On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 12:46 AM Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@...> wrote:

What would happen (from now on) to subgroups in groups who are premium 
for a while and then changes to non-premium?  Will it be a loophole in 
the system that you can create subgroups by paying for 1 month premium?

The subgroups will be deleted, after a delay to ensure that the downgrade wasn't an inadvertent mistake on the part of the group owner.”

Your comment above is my first indication that my existing subgroup established under the temporary “Premium” membership purchased to get my groups transferred from Yahoo would disappear if and when we exercised the promised option to revert to a free group, i.e that it would not be “grandfathered”.

As you say, that feature may not have existed because there was no need for it.  Since you now appear to have above defined a “new consideration”, my current response would seem both reasonable and appropriate.

Respectfully,

WRB


On Jan 13, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 12:37 PM txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:
So what would be the appropriate sequence and timing to (1) create a new free group to receive the information presently in a Premium subgroup such that (2) transfer of such content is not lost when exercising the option to downgrade from Premium to free status at the end of the present paid period?  Is there a way for a list owner to do such transfer within present Groups.io tools/procedures?

Not sure I understand. You want to take an existing subgroup and make it a stand alone group? That feature doesn't presently exist.

Mark 
_._,_._,_


 

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 12:37 PM txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:
So what would be the appropriate sequence and timing to (1) create a new free group to receive the information presently in a Premium subgroup such that (2) transfer of such content is not lost when exercising the option to downgrade from Premium to free status at the end of the present paid period?  Is there a way for a list owner to do such transfer within present Groups.io tools/procedures?

Not sure I understand. You want to take an existing subgroup and make it a stand alone group? That feature doesn't presently exist.

Mark 


txercoupemuseum.org
 

So what would be the appropriate sequence and timing to (1) create a new free group to receive the information presently in a Premium subgroup such that (2) transfer of such content is not lost when exercising the option to downgrade from Premium to free status at the end of the present paid period?  Is there a way for a list owner to do such transfer within present Groups.io tools/procedures?

WRB

— 

On Jan 13, 2020, at 2:26 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 12:46 AM Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@...> wrote:

What would happen (from now on) to subgroups in groups who are premium
for a while and then changes to non-premium?  Will it be a loophole in
the system that you can create subgroups by paying for 1 month premium?

The subgroups will be deleted, after a delay to ensure that the downgrade wasn't an inadvertent mistake on the part of the group owner.


Mark 


 

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 4:07 AM Beth Weld <bethweld77@...> wrote:

If the subgroups count towards the main group total, it would be very helpful to be able to see an accumulated total in the main group instead of trying to manually calculate it. If each subgroup has its own limit then I won't worry about it anymore.


Subgroups each have the same amount of storage as the main group. So, in (current) basic groups, the main group has 1GB of storage, and each subgroup also has 1GB of storage.


Mark


 

On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 12:46 AM Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@...> wrote:

What would happen (from now on) to subgroups in groups who are premium
for a while and then changes to non-premium?  Will it be a loophole in
the system that you can create subgroups by paying for 1 month premium?

The subgroups will be deleted, after a delay to ensure that the downgrade wasn't an inadvertent mistake on the part of the group owner.


Mark 


Thomas Gruber
 

Hi,
I searched a bit, in the „pricing“ info and also in the Wiki, but couldn’t find any clear statement saying that storage subgroups and their files, photos, and attachments use count into the overall storage. But I think it‘s pretty clear as the different levels have storage limits, and that is for a main group including all subgroups. There is no pricing for subgroups.
Maybe a sentence in the pricing info saying „including subgroups“ would clarify things.
Thomas


Am 12.01.2020 um 13:07 schrieb Beth Weld <bethweld77@...>:

Yeah, what she said....... much more eloquently than I could.

We usually have  25-40 subgroups at a time because we run various workshops during the year. We set up a subgroup for a workshop, and students participate for 2-6 months (depending on the workshop) and then we delete the subgroup.  Some workshops have a lot of participation with photos and files, and others don't.  

If the subgroups count towards the main group total, it would be very helpful to be able to see an accumulated total in the main group instead of trying to manually calculate it. If each subgroup has its own limit then I won't worry about it anymore.
Thanks
Beth


Beth Weld
 

Yeah, what she said....... much more eloquently than I could.

We usually have  25-40 subgroups at a time because we run various workshops during the year. We set up a subgroup for a workshop, and students participate for 2-6 months (depending on the workshop) and then we delete the subgroup.  Some workshops have a lot of participation with photos and files, and others don't.  

If the subgroups count towards the main group total, it would be very helpful to be able to see an accumulated total in the main group instead of trying to manually calculate it. If each subgroup has its own limit then I won't worry about it anymore.
Thanks
Beth


 

Our subgroups they come and they go,
So we wonder if storage is low.
We have lots of doubt how to
Figure it out cuz
Our limit we don't wanna blow
-- 

J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Bob Bellizzi
 

Beth,
What do you mean by "many groups that come and go"?
Please be more specific
--

Bob Bellizzi