Topics

locked Code of conduct


 

Hi All,

I believe Groups.io should have a Code of Conduct. Yes, we already have a Terms of Service, but a Code of Conduct covers somewhat different territory. Here are three examples of Codes that I like, to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:


Of course, not all parts of those are applicable to Groups.io groups. Let me stress, the goal isn't to limit discussion or topics or groups, but to provide guidelines to keep things civil and respectful.

When I've brought this up before, some have said that they didn't think something like this was needed. That's fantastic; you're running your groups well! But based on complaints I'm getting through support, however, I think Groups.io in general would benefit from something like this.

Is this a bad idea? Tell me why (respectfully, please :-) ). Otherwise, let me know which parts of those Codes you like or don't like and I'll start cobbling something together. If you have a favorite Code of Conduct from somewhere else, please share it as well.

I've tagged this with the #CoC hashtag, so you can ignore discussions about this if you wish.

Thanks,
Mark


 

I like them all, but especially the first one, which is very much along the lines of  the guidelines I've been working on for my own group. 

J


 

Hi Mark,

Are you discussing a code of conduct for this "beta" group, or an across the board Groups.io code of conduct?  If so, who would be enforcing it?  Are we going to have a Groups.io Code of Conduct Police Dept.?  People scouring our public and private groups for conduct violations?  Doesn't sound good from the start.

Having been on Y!Groups for so long I know that many different groups have many different personalities and different things that are OK and that are not OK.  What's OK on one group may not be OK on another group.  What some groups might find to be humorous sarcasm other groups might find to be rude and disrespectful.  "Ass" may be an animal on one group, a term of endearment on another, and a profanity on yet another.  Sunni's and Shite's can't agree on what's OK and what's not in Islam, Democrats and Republicans can't agree what OK and what's not in this country.  Why would we think that one person's code of conduct would be acceptable to other people?

This sounds like going somewhere that Groups.io shouldn't be going, and that Groups.io should NOT be having anything to do with a code of conduct unless it is directly relating to a Groups.io group like this "beta" group, NOT relating to a Groups.io group that is owned/moderated by a third party individual.

Best,

Mark Bielecki

 


Ber <bxm@...>
 

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 01:08 pm, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
I believe Groups.io should have a Code of Conduct. Yes, we already have a Terms of Service, but a Code of Conduct covers somewhat different territory. Here are three examples of Codes that I like, to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:

Your examples are from specific communities revolving around mainly one core concept/idea/project. (Btw I like the one from discourse best.) I don't think Groups.io is only one community, but many communities, that is, Groups.io serves as a platform-provider for communities. Unlike Twitter, Facebook, reddit, the communities (groups) on Groups.io are very much seperated from each other. There is (or will be) a wide variety of how groups discuss topics, how they operate and which purpose they serve. Therefore, maybe and IMHO, a CoC (or something similar) would best be installed on a per-group basis, with the owners/moderators in charge to (optionally) put it into place and practice. This would give them the chance to address specific needs of a CoC for a group. Would that make sense?

ber–



Cacky B
 

As was mentioned in one of the replies, groups.io will have many different types of groups, each with its own idea of what is acceptable and what is not. I liked parts of each of the three you posted as examples, but feel that whatever is adopted by groups.io should be much more general. Because of that, my preference leans toward the last one as it seemed the least specific. Each of the groups I have currently on groups.io or on yahoogroups is extremely well-behaved, and I can't even imagine there ever being a need to police them. The worst that ever happens is a hi-jacked address sending out a phishing message, and that's not intentional by the member. I certainly have no objection if you feel there is a need, but rules can be difficult.

Cacky

On 2/10/2016 3:08 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Hi All,

I believe Groups.io should have a Code of Conduct. Yes, we already have a Terms of Service, but a Code of Conduct covers somewhat different territory. Here are three examples of Codes that I like, to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:

http://try.discourse.org/faq
https://golang.org/conduct
http://rubyonrails.org/conduct/


vickie <vickie_00@...>
 

Mark,>>>When I've brought this up before, some have said that they didn't think something like this was needed. That's fantastic; you're running your groups well! But based on complaints I'm getting through support, however, I think Groups.io in general would benefit from something like this.
A general code of conduct for the website. io?  If not


I am sorry you are personally receiving complaints. 
However if the complaint is about a particular group member  then the member needs to be redirected to speak to
 that group moderator privately to resolve the problem.

There are always 2 sides to a story.
On the norm  moderators   will always  help any member who is having a bad experience
in a  group.

 I have a lot of groups.   All of them are family friendly G rated  groups. 
Each group has it's own policy and guidelines including a code of conduct. 
In my guideline I include net etiquette / code of conduct advice  prior  to any one joining my group.

I had a member join and she had a   x rated nasty profile.  Woman in bed with one another and she called it  modeling. Eeeek  not..lol
 I asked her to please turn off her profile while participating with the group.

She said no.  
My group specifically  is advising that it is a family  G rated group prior to joining.
Once you advise someone of the group policies the moderator has every right to not approve that membership.
I received nasty rude emails off list  because I would not   approve her membership.
I managed the problem, banned her  and that was that.
If  a  member turns to you,  you shouldn't have to worry about problems in any group.. 
Not unless   the moderator is not adhering to your TOS. 

However if you need a code of conduct for  the Beta group. Everyone should  respect not only you but your code of conduct.
Be prepared to police  the member count in the Beta group. 
However from what I have noticed, everyone in this group is nice and polite.



Vickie




    
 


From: Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io>
To: beta@groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 4:08 PM
Subject: [beta] Code of conduct #CoC

Hi All,

I believe Groups.io should have a Code of Conduct. Yes, we already have a Terms of Service, but a Code of Conduct covers somewhat different territory. Here are three examples of Codes that I like, to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:


Of course, not all parts of those are applicable to Groups.io groups. Let me stress, the goal isn't to limit discussion or topics or groups, but to provide guidelines to keep things civil and respectful.

When I've brought this up before, some have said that they didn't think something like this was needed. That's fantastic; you're running your groups well! But based on complaints I'm getting through support, however, I think Groups.io in general would benefit from something like this.

Is this a bad idea? Tell me why (respectfully, please :-) ). Otherwise, let me know which parts of those Codes you like or don't like and I'll start cobbling something together. If you have a favorite Code of Conduct from somewhere else, please share it as well.

I've tagged this with the #CoC hashtag, so you can ignore discussions about this if you wish.

Thanks,
Mark




 

Mark writes, "I believe Groups.io should have a Code of Conduct. Yes, we already have a Terms of Service, but a Code of Conduct covers somewhat different territory. ... Let me stress, the goal isn't to limit discussion or topics or groups, but to provide guidelines to keep things civil and respectful."

I can see the value in a general code of conduct. It's unfortunate that one is needed, but humans will be humans. By necessity it will need to be open enough to accommodate all the diverse groups, but there are some things in this country that polite people seem to agree on. I think the discrimination clause and the harassment or bullying clause are both very important. There may be others, but those seem to show up as significant problems where people can post and hide behind a pseudonym. I have personally dealt with a troublesome problem with trolls on one group by requiring first and last names on all posts to eliminate the anonymity. On that particular group it actually fostered more participation because people had a name to address the person they might be replying to, but I can certainly see where this wouldn't work for all groups..

On my own groups there are two things I try to advocate strongly. The first is to respond to subject at hand, not the person who made the comment. The second is to treat others on the list with the same respect that one would have for a person you meet on the street. That doesn't mean you have to agree with them or even like them, but civility and respect are paramount to a healthy group discussion.

I look forward to seeing what you finally come up with. I trust that several others here will have some good ideas as well.

Dano


RS
 

I agree that the moderator needs to be the responsible party to the utmost extent possible.  Members also need to be responsible and leave any group t hey feel is not respectful.  After enough people leave, the group may or may not get the message, but that should be on them too.

Let's meet in the middle.

SUGGESTION: Create a "Code of Conduct" message page for all groups, always visible can't be deactivated.  It would be linked on the sidebar like any other feature.  It would be auto populated with the default text as decided on by Groups.io management, so all groups are encouraged to begin with this standard.  However, since one size never fits all, add the following functions.

1) Owners (and moderators if so designated) can edit this text.  If they do so, a bright red message appears at the top of the message page saying, "This group's Code of Conduct varies from the Groups.io default.  Please read it carefully." (or words to that effect). 

2) The message by default is auto-emailed out to new members when they are added.  Allowing disabling this feature would not be something I would recommend, but I suppose if you countered it's removal with a different auto-emailed message stating that "this group does not auto-send Code of Conduct info out, please see the CoC page here (link), or contact the group's owner for more info." (OWTTE) you could allow it.  I think that would weaken it's impact past my comfort level though.

3) Owners (and mods if designated) have the ability to manually send the CoC to the group or to a select person (or list of persons) ideally right from the CoC screen.

4) Ability to autosend the CoC at regular intervals if the group wants to set that up.

This way, you encourage but don't tie down creativity, freedom of expression, etc., encourage responsible behavior, and also reduce the burden of enforcement. The last thing you want is to get embroiled in what constitutes a "knee-jerk reaction" on a system with a likes feature and easy "quick reply" features which encourage knee-jerk responses.

Let the TOS be the arbiter of the allowable content (your pervue of enforcement), and the Mods be the arbiters of etiquette via the CoC (their pervue), and the Members be thus empowered to act in a fully informed manner (our own inherent responsibility). Getting more complex than that would be a can o worms you may not want, or be able to keep up with. 


 

I'm afraid I disagree with RS. The code of conduct is something that's necessary to protect groups.io from legal problems. Since internet access has been deemed a public utility by the FCC, discrimination on forums could be seen as something to start a lawsuit over. The Code of Conduct needs to be something that is not negotiable by any group owner or moderator. They are the rules that MUST be adhered to by *all* users of groups.io. The intent is to make sure that certain, shall we say "inalienable rights", are respected by everyone who uses groups.io for any reason.

It's also important to acknowledge that groups are not public forums, but are private forums that operate at the discretion of the group owners, who are in turn responsible to groups.io for members meeting the code of conduct. By joining a group, the member acknowledges the right of the group owner to limit some free speech for the good of the group.

Dano


 

In my opinion, defining and enforcing a code of conduct should fall upon a group's owners and moderators. Though I like RS's suggestion of creating a custom group code of conduct section that can be auto-populated with default text and adjusted as desired.

One exception is a code of conduct for group owners themselves. Say someone created a group named JohnF_Is_A_Doofus, and filled it with content I found insulting (but was otherwise legal). Obviously, complaining to the group owner won't do any good, as the group owner is who did it in the first place. What recourse should I have?

JohnF


vickie <vickie_00@...>
 

John

If I may
>>> custom group code . there are   many John f  names..  as in John middle name frank..

Names have no copy right ownership.  Neither do towns or counties.
and there could be  a lot of  goofy. doofus groups as in lets let loose and have fun  
You have a choice John.. If your not  happy with the group, you can always unsub from the group and 
create your own group and your own  subgroup. 

Creating a code for group creations. hmm. that would be   a long stretch
adult groups are another matter and that would fall under a different  group listing according to .io  tos policy.
 However if a group owner intentionally created a group to  bully you, or insult you, then  you  have every right to
submit your complaint to support group .io.
However I don't ever see that happening in any group. No moderator would ever allow that.
Thank you John for   reading my message.

Vickie 












 

Vickie

 










From: JohnF via Groups.io <johnf1686@...>
To: beta@groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 8:52 PM
Subject: [beta] Re: Code of conduct #CoC

In my opinion, defining and enforcing a code of conduct should fall upon a group's owners and moderators.  Though I like RS's suggestion of creating a custom group code of conduct section that can be auto-populated with default text and adjusted as desired.

One exception is a code of conduct for group owners themselves.  Say someone created a group named JohnF_Is_A_Doofus, and filled it with content I found insulting (but was otherwise legal).  Obviously, complaining to the group owner won't do any good, as the group owner is who did it in the first place.  What recourse should I have?

JohnF








vickie <vickie_00@...>
 

Dano,

That's where a disclaimer comes in..

By joining the list, you agree to hold neither the list owners, moderators nor anyone affiliated group. io
responsible or liable for any circumstance resulting from a related exchange or communication. 

Vickie




From: D R Stinson <dano@...>
To: beta@groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 8:45 PM
Subject: [beta] Re: Code of conduct #CoC

I'm afraid I disagree with RS. The code of conduct is something that's necessary to protect groups.io from legal problems. Since internet access has been deemed a public utility by the FCC, discrimination on forums could be seen as something to start a lawsuit over. The Code of Conduct needs to be something that is not negotiable by any group owner or moderator. They are the rules that MUST be adhered to by *all* users of groups.io. The intent is to make sure that certain, shall we say "inalienable rights", are respected by everyone who uses groups.io for any reason.

It's also important to acknowledge that groups are not public forums, but are private forums that operate at the discretion of the group owners, who are in turn responsible to groups.io for members meeting the code of conduct. By joining a group, the member acknowledges the right of the group owner to limit some free speech for the good of the group.

Dano







 

Hi Mark,

I would agree with Vicki that complaints about specific groups need to go to and are the purview of the owner/moderator of that specific group.

I know that a number of months or so ago you were  dealing with complaints about certain Groups.io moderator(s) from somebody named Ma**in right here on this 'beta" group; Ma**in was also causing a ruckus with the same types of complaints on Yahoo! Groups.  IMHO, that's the perfect example of why you, as the owner of Groups.io, should NOT be involved in imposing or policing a code of conduct for specific groups here on Groups.io other than your own.  Step back before the quicksand pulls you in!

Why would you want to become involved in the internal problems of what will hopefully some day be thousands of Groups.io groups?  Ma**in was a troll, for all intents and purposes, making problems for a Groups.io group owner who didn't want Ma**in in his group any longer because he had become a problem member;  Ma**in was trying to cause these same types of problems on Y!Groups also (I read his posts there also!).  So he was booted by multiple groups' owner(s) because he was obviously (even to an outsider) causing problems with the group and its owner/moderator.  It's the group owner's group;  s/he should have the prerogative for policing and running his or her group as he or she sees fit.  If Ma**in didn't like it Ma**in was free to start his own group;  instead, he simply was trying to make problems for the group's owner/moderator in a group where he was no longer welcome.

I previously wrote on this thread about the word "ass" (some people think of it as an animal, some as a term of endearment, some as a profanity).  My concerns about a Groups.io code of conduct that would apply not only to Group.io's owned groups (such as this "beta" group) but to all G.io groups is very much based on my objections about people telling other people what they can say, how they can say it, and/or how to act (PC overcorrectness) as well as one personal experience from Yahoo! Groups which I will share here:

On one of the Yahoo! Groups I once owned one of our members was an artist of national, even international, reknown and was having an art show at a local gallery.  I and many other members owned pieces of this artist's work (we'll call him "Al").  When Al had an art show a number of years ago probably 50 or 60 people that were part of my Y!Group decided to attend the grand opening and have a big party afterwards, which I put together for Al.  Both myself and a number of people owned multiple pieces of Al's art, and both the art show and the after party presented an opportunity for some of us who owned pieces of his art to reduce our inventory and/or sell at a profit.  The Y!Group was a casual group but rather large with members spread throughout the US and Canada;  many of us who knew others personally and for a number of years were more familiar, less formal, and more casual with one another than some of those who were newcomers or were less well acquainted.

I made a post to this group (which as I mentioned I owned/moderated) with the tongue-in-cheek subject line "Al's Balls For Sale" and within a few days Yahoo! had locked me out of my group for "harassing" Al -- without even one word or any notice to me as to why.  Unfortunately Yahoo! didn't know that Al was, among other things, a glassblower who had made a very good living for decades blowing large glass balls, perhaps 12" to 36" in diameter, that were collected as pieces of art and which Al had sold for lots and lots of money.  While admittedly I wrote my subject line as a play on words to catch others' attention, the fact of the matter is that I was actually offering Al's balls for sale, which is exactly what the subject line of the post said.  The fine folks at Yahoo!'s PC police force received a complaint (maybe somebody not invited to the aftershow party, maybe somebody new to the group, maybe somebody especially PC or uptight, maybe somebody who didn't like me, who knows) and Yahoo! unilaterally and without notice of the complaint or an opportunity for me to respond decided that this was harassment of Al and a violation of the Y!Groups TOU or code of conduct or some other thing like that (Al didn't think so and is still an active participant in the group;  he made lots of money from the art show and the party I threw for him after the show and found the post amusing).

The bottom line is that I couldn't get Yahoo! to let me back into my group because whatever 20-something year old kid on a power trip who I was communicating with at Yahoo! not only could not grasp the fact that I actually and truly was trying to sell Al's balls but also had no idea of the culture of the group and what was acceptable and what was not acceptable to communicate in that group, which I had spent many years building and shaping, and was imposing his or her own set of PC correctness and personal values based on some unknown member's complaint (I did end up selling one of the balls from the post, BTW).  Luckily for myself I had set up a back-up email address that I had made an owner of the group as well, so I was able to continue running the group.  If I hadn't done that my group would have been leaderless and likely eventually would quickly stopped being of value to its members.

I can say that I would have grave concerns about Groups.io having a blanket code of conduct for all of the groups, not just the ones owned by G.io, and I would have great reluctance to build groups in or move groups to G.io if their continued existence was subject to the whim of some unknown Groups.io employee, based not on the group's culture but rather on what that employee felt was acceptable or not acceptable based on and subject to that employee's reading of the G.io code of conduct, personal biases, upbringing, PC factor, religious upbringing, etc.  

IMHO, TOU violations certainly are within G.io's purview, imposing a code of conduct on what people can say, how they can say it, etc. is not;  that should be within the purview of the individual group's owner/moderator.  And, as I questioned previously, why would Groups.io even want to go there, especially when it gets to the point that you have thousands and thousands of groups, which extrapolates out to lots and lots of disgruntled people who are unhappy with any number of things that any one group's management does or doesn't do and who could become trolls and cause problems by simply using G.io's code of conduct as a tool?  Refer non-TOU complaints back to the group's owners;  the complaints will sort themselves out, nobody is forcing anybody to read anything they find objectionable, nobody is forcing anybody to stay in a group, nobody is stopping anybody from starting their own group, and nobody needs the PC police abridging peoples' rights to free speech.  One might also want to consider whether advertisers will want to advertise on a site intended to encourage communication but which potentially restricts people's ability to speak freely based upon a code of conduct that not everybody will agree with and which some will almost certainly find to be overly restrictive in a country that values and was built upon concepts of free speech.  

Isn't the whole idea behind Groups.io to allow people to express themselves and to facilitate, rather than restrict or impede, communication among people who wish to group together to communicate with one another?    

Please consider your code of conduct idea very carefully;  I believe it's a treacherous path and slippery slope to go down.

Best,

Mark Bielecki

    


vickie <vickie_00@...>
 

Mark Bielecki>>>>  Ma**in was trying to cause these same types of problems on Y!Groups
 

On the flip side of this is ma**in joined my group even knowing he had problems in other groups I would approve 
the member in my group.
Why-?  Because I need my own experience with the member ,   reason per my group policy to not approve the member in my group. 
Moderators should adhere to  the group policies they set  to be fair to every member.
If the member  disrespects that group policy I would first  speak to the member privately to remind that member of group guidelines / policies.
If  the member does not respect the group policies then I act accordingly.

That is why it is important to have guidelines if you have a large group.
A moderators job sometimes is to defuse the problem not take sides.
Because your dealing with different personalities.

Vickie 





From: Mark Bielecki via Groups.io <msb05001@...>
To: beta@groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 10:28 PM
Subject: [beta] Re: Code of conduct #CoC

Hi Mark,
I would agree with Vicki that complaints about specific groups need to go to and are the purview of the owner/moderator of that specific group.
I know that a number of months or so ago you were  dealing with complaints about certain Groups.io moderator(s) from somebody named Ma**in right here on this 'beta" group; Ma**in was also causing a ruckus with the same types of complaints on Yahoo! Groups.  IMHO, that's the perfect example of why you, as the owner of Groups.io, should NOT be involved in imposing or policing a code of conduct for specific groups here on Groups.io other than your own.  Step back before the quicksand pulls you in!
Why would you want to become involved in the internal problems of what will hopefully some day be thousands of Groups.io groups?  Ma**in was a troll, for all intents and purposes, making problems for a Groups.io group owner who didn't want Ma**in in his group any longer because he had become a problem member;  Ma**in was trying to cause these same types of problems on Y!Groups also (I read his posts there also!).  So he was booted by multiple groups' owner(s) because he was obviously (even to an outsider) causing problems with the group and its owner/moderator.  It's the group owner's group;  s/he should have the prerogative for policing and running his or her group as he or she sees fit.  If Ma**in didn't like it Ma**in was free to start his own group;  instead, he simply was trying to make problems for the group's owner/moderator in a group where he was no longer welcome.
I previously wrote on this thread about the word "ass" (some people think of it as an animal, some as a term of endearment, some as a profanity).  My concerns about a Groups.io code of conduct that would apply not only to Group.io's owned groups (such as this "beta" group) but to all G.io groups is very much based on my objections about people telling other people what they can say, how they can say it, and/or how to act (PC overcorrectness) as well as one personal experience from Yahoo! Groups which I will share here:
On one of the Yahoo! Groups I once owned one of our members was an artist of national, even international, reknown and was having an art show at a local gallery.  I and many other members owned pieces of this artist's work (we'll call him "Al").  When Al had an art show a number of years ago probably 50 or 60 people that were part of my Y!Group decided to attend the grand opening and have a big party afterwards, which I put together for Al.  Both myself and a number of people owned multiple pieces of Al's art, and both the art show and the after party presented an opportunity for some of us who owned pieces of his art to reduce our inventory and/or sell at a profit.  The Y!Group was a casual group but rather large with members spread throughout the US and Canada;  many of us who knew others personally and for a number of years were more familiar, less formal, and more casual with one another than some of those who were newcomers or were less well acquainted.
I made a post to this group (which as I mentioned I owned/moderated) with the tongue-in-cheek subject line "Al's Balls For Sale" and within a few days Yahoo! had locked me out of my group for "harassing" Al -- without even one word or any notice to me as to why.  Unfortunately Yahoo! didn't know that Al was, among other things, a glassblower who had made a very good living for decades blowing large glass balls, perhaps 12" to 36" in diameter, that were collected as pieces of art and which Al had sold for lots and lots of money.  While admittedly I wrote my subject line as a play on words to catch others' attention, the fact of the matter is that I was actually offering Al's balls for sale, which is exactly what the subject line of the post said.  The fine folks at Yahoo!'s PC police force received a complaint (maybe somebody not invited to the aftershow party, maybe somebody new to the group, maybe somebody especially PC or uptight, maybe somebody who didn't like me, who knows) and Yahoo! unilaterally and without notice of the complaint or an opportunity for me to respond decided that this was harassment of Al and a violation of the Y!Groups TOU or code of conduct or some other thing like that (Al didn't think so and is still an active participant in the group;  he made lots of money from the art show and the party I threw for him after the show and found the post amusing).
The bottom line is that I couldn't get Yahoo! to let me back into my group because whatever 20-something year old kid on a power trip who I was communicating with at Yahoo! not only could not grasp the fact that I actually and truly was trying to sell Al's balls but also had no idea of the culture of the group and what was acceptable and what was not acceptable to communicate in that group, which I had spent many years building and shaping, and was imposing his or her own set of PC correctness and personal values based on some unknown member's complaint (I did end up selling one of the balls from the post, BTW).  Luckily for myself I had set up a back-up email address that I had made an owner of the group as well, so I was able to continue running the group.  If I hadn't done that my group would have been leaderless and likely eventually would quickly stopped being of value to its members.
I can say that I would have grave concerns about Groups.io having a blanket code of conduct for all of the groups, not just the ones owned by G.io, and I would have great reluctance to build groups in or move groups to G.io if their continued existence was subject to the whim of some unknown Groups.io employee, based not on the group's culture but rather on what that employee felt was acceptable or not acceptable based on and subject to that employee's reading of the G.io code of conduct, personal biases, upbringing, PC factor, religious upbringing, etc.  
IMHO, TOU violations certainly are within G.io's purview, imposing a code of conduct on what people can say, how they can say it, etc. is not;  that should be within the purview of the individual group's owner/moderator.  And, as I questioned previously, why would Groups.io even want to go there, especially when it gets to the point that you have thousands and thousands of groups, which extrapolates out to lots and lots of disgruntled people who are unhappy with any number of things that any one group's management does or doesn't do and who could become trolls and cause problems by simply using G.io's code of conduct as a tool?  Refer non-TOU complaints back to the group's owners;  the complaints will sort themselves out, nobody is forcing anybody to read anything they find objectionable, nobody is forcing anybody to stay in a group, nobody is stopping anybody from starting their own group, and nobody needs the PC police abridging peoples' rights to free speech.  One might also want to consider whether advertisers will want to advertise on a site intended to encourage communication but which potentially restricts people's ability to speak freely based upon a code of conduct that not everybody will agree with and which some will almost certainly find to be overly restrictive in a country that values and was built upon concepts of free speech.  
Isn't the whole idea behind Groups.io to allow people to express themselves and to facilitate, rather than restrict or impede, communication among people who wish to group together to communicate with one another?    
Please consider your code of conduct idea very carefully;  I believe it's a treacherous path and slippery slope to go down.
Best,
Mark Bielecki
    




 

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 07:28 pm, Mark Bielecki <msb05001@...> wrote:
the fact of the matter is that I was actually offering Al's balls for sale, which is exactly what the subject line of the post said.  

 I have to say: LOL.;) Great story!

J


 

Ber makes an exceptional point in that the groups in Groups.io are disparate, encompass many different communities, and unlike Twitter, Facebook, reddit, the communities (groups) on Groups.io are very much separated from each other (and I note some so far as to be "private" and unavailable to the general public at all).

Also as Ber noted, there is (or will be) a wide variety of how groups discuss topics, how they operate and which purpose they serve.  From my perspective, trying to write (and enforce) a one-size-fits-all code of conduct, or even making multiple versions of codes of conduct available but mandatory, ultimately is an attempt to force the views, morals, politics, PC'ness, etc. of the writer(s) of the code(s) of conduct upon others who may not agree with those individuals' perspectives.  A communications tool like Groups.io should be all about allowing and encouraging freedom of expression, not limiting expression or forcing people to conform to some strictly defined "standards" mandated and imposed by others.      

  


 

Thanks, J_catlady!

Mark Bielecki


On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 08:14 pm, J_catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 07:28 pm, Mark Bielecki <msb05001@...> wrote:
the fact of the matter is that I was actually offering Al's balls for sale, which is exactly what the subject line of the post said.  

 I have to say: LOL.;) Great story!

J

 


 

Vickie, there are some rights you can't be expected to sign away. That's what the Code of Conduct is about.

 

People seem to be confused about just what a code of conduct is. It has nothing to do with group rules, although group rules are expected to conform to them. A Code of Conduct is that small collection of rules you are expected to abide by when you first arrive at groups.io.

 

It doesn't matter if you belong to a group or not, the Code of Conduct still governs your actions. If you send a rude off-list message to a moderator asking to join a group or if you insult the help desk, that's still a code of conduct violation, even if it didn't happen in a group. Every owner, moderator and groups.io staff member is expected to understand and act in accordance with the code.

 

If you want to think of it in simpler terms, it's the rules Mark expects everyone to follow in groups.io. You can set your own specific group rules, but the Code of Conduct is above that, and Mark is the final judge. I understand why he has that concern and I support his right to post one for everyone to follow.

 

Dano

 

----- Original Message -----

From: vickie via Groups.io <vickie_00@...>

Reply-To: <beta@groups.io>

To: <beta@groups.io>

Sent: 2/10/2016 7:42:10 PM

Subject: [beta] Code of conduct #CoC


Dano,

 

That's where a disclaimer comes in..

 

By joining the list, you agree to hold neither the list owners, moderators nor anyone affiliated group. io responsible or liable for any circumstance resulting from a related exchange or communication. 

Vickie


David P. Dillard
 

I fully agree with Mark. Freedom of expression and speech is just as important to a discussion group network as it is under the Constitution in general. A code of conduct for Groups.IO would be the first step towards censorship and a thought controled organization. Also, it is never a good idea to fix problems that do not exist.

http://tinyurl.com/hbzybha


.

.


Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@temple.edu

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016, Mark Bielecki via Groups.io wrote:

Hi Mark,
Are you discussing a code of conduct for this "beta" group, or an across the board Groups.io code of conduct?  If so, who
would be enforcing it?  Are we going to have a Groups.io Code of Conduct Police Dept.?  People scouring our public and
private groups for conduct violations?  Doesn't sound good from the start.
Having been on Y!Groups for so long I know that many different groups have many different personalities and different things
that are OK and that are not OK.  What's OK on one group may not be OK on another group.  What some groups might find to be
humorous sarcasm other groups might find to be rude and disrespectful.  "Ass" may be an animal on one group, a term of
endearment on another, and a profanity on yet another.  Sunni's and Shite's can't agree on what's OK and what's not in
Islam, Democrats and Republicans can't agree what OK and what's not in this country.  Why would we think that one person's
code of conduct would be acceptable to other people?
This sounds like going somewhere that Groups.io shouldn't be going, and that Groups.io should NOT be having anything to do
with a code of conduct unless it is directly relating to a Groups.io group like this "beta" group, NOT relating to a
Groups.io group that is owned/moderated by a third party individual.
Best,
Mark Bielecki
 


Duane
 

I think that an overall CoC for the site would be welcome. I also believe it should apply to any group content that is open to the public. Even though a group may have its own limitations on membership or content, if the contents are viewable by the public, they should be civil.

Thanks,
Duane