moderated allow member messages with none active #suggestion


 

Currently, the only way to remove a member without having a removal message sent is to have no messages of type "removed" exist in the member messages list. (This is the same for the other message types.) If any exist, the system forces at least one of them to be "active." If you uncheck the "active" box on the active message, the system makes a different one active, seemingly arbitrarily. 

It would be convenient to allow message types to exist without always forcing one to be active.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 7:16 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Currently, the only way to remove a member without having a removal message sent is to have no messages of type "removed" exist in the member messages list. (This is the same for the other message types.) If any exist, the system forces at least one of them to be "active." If you uncheck the "active" box on the active message, the system makes a different one active, seemingly arbitrarily. 

It would be convenient to allow message types to exist without always forcing one to be active.

So, how would that work in email command situations? Just always no removal message being sent?

Thanks,
Mark 


 

I dunno. The same way it works currently when there's no removal message? 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

I mean, you can have "always no removal message sent" by simply failing to create one in the messages list (unless that's changed?). What difference does it make whether you remove a person using an email or a web command? Am I missing something?
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

Mark,

J wrote:
It would be convenient to allow message types to exist without always
forcing one to be active.
I solidly concur. For all notice types.

I just had to delete the Welcome Message of my PTA group (it only had one Welcome Message) to prevent hundreds of Direct Add newbies from getting both a Direct Add Message and a Welcome Message.

The two would have been redundant because I had put welcoming information (appropriate to the direct add case) in the customization area of the Direct Add Message. I only have a Welcome Message in case someone joins of their own accord.

Shal


 

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 01:33 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
I just had to delete the Welcome Message
What I did was create essentially blank messages (the system doesn't even allow them to be blank!) with some garbage text like "this is a do-not-reply message," just so that I don't have to delete the ones I want. I put something non-descript in the titles, too. So something meaningless goes out to the member and I can blame it on a "system bug" or whatever. It's a big PITA!!!
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:
Mark,

J wrote:
> It would be convenient to allow message types to exist without always
> forcing one to be active.

I solidly concur. For all notice types.

Ok, I can do that. But we need to talk about welcome messages, because (as Shal unfortunately got bit by), they are a special case. We have a default welcome message that gets sent out if there isn't another (active) welcome message. The message doesn't show up in the Group Messages page. This dates back to the beginning of the service, where I thought it'd be a good idea to have a default welcome so that when someone is setting up a group for the first time, they wouldn't have to worry about it. Here's a proposal:

- When a group is created, a default welcome message is created and made active at the same time.
- You can edit/delete this default welcome message, like any other. If you delete it, you will not have a welcome message at all.

Also, related, when you direct add someone or when an invite is accepted, the default welcome message is currently sent out (or the active one, if there is one). I will change this to conform with the expected behavior; if there isn't a welcome message, it won't get sent out.

Make sense? Sorry for the confusion.

Mark


 

Replying to my own email.

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Ok, I can do that. But we need to talk about welcome messages, because (as Shal unfortunately got bit by), they are a special case. We have a default welcome message that gets sent out if there isn't another (active) welcome message. The message doesn't show up in the Group Messages page. This dates back to the beginning of the service, where I thought it'd be a good idea to have a default welcome so that when someone is setting up a group for the first time, they wouldn't have to worry about it. 

One wrinkle is that by having the default welcome message be auto generated at the time it's sent, it's always up to date. That is, if I generate the welcome message when a group is created, then if the person changes the name of the group or creates subgroups, the message is out of date/wrong. How should we handle that, if at all?

Thanks,
Mark


 

Mark,

- When a group is created, a default welcome message is created and
made active at the same time.
- You can edit/delete this default welcome message, like any other.
If you delete it, you will not have a welcome message at all.
Greater transparency works for me. With the understanding that none active also means none gets sent.

Also, related, when you direct add someone or when an invite is
accepted, the default welcome message is currently sent out (or the
active one, if there is one). I will change this to conform with the
expected behavior; if there isn't a welcome message, it won't get
sent out.
This too, for an accepted Invite.

For Direct Add I think it is reasonable to omit the Welcome Message altogether.

Direct Add has its own message; currently it and the Welcome Message get sent simultaneously -- which seems redundant to me. Anything I (as group admin) have to say by way of welcoming the new member I can say in the (customized portion of the) Direct Add message.

This way I wouldn't have to go and toggle my Welcome message off and on again each time I do a batch of Direct Add.

Shal


 

I don't think you should auto-change the auto-message in response to events (leave it to the group owners/moderators), but you could show a "reminder" message whenever something changes that is part of your default message. For example, if someone changes the name of the group, along with the confirmation that the group name has changed, a suggestion that the automatic messages be reviewed to see if they need to be changed, too.

JohnF

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 04:57 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
One wrinkle is that by having the default welcome message be auto generated
at the time it's sent, it's always up to date. That is, if I generate the
welcome message when a group is created, then if the person changes the
name of the group or creates subgroups, the message is out of date/wrong.
How should we handle that, if at all?


 

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 05:08 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
For Direct Add I think it is reasonable to omit the Welcome Message altogether.
That would be a deal breaker for me. I absolutely want the welcome message to be sent (only, of course, if one exists - which it does, for my group) after a direct add. I don't understand at all why it would be left out. For the custom text in direct add, I typically write something personal to the person being added. It is not even remotely related to the welcome message, which contains (among other things) all our group guidelines. Not redundant at all.
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

J,

I don't understand at all why it would be left out.
Simple.

Two different messages for two different circumstances.

My Direct Add message is phrased in the context of "we've added you to our mailing list".

My Welcome Message, by contrast, is phrased in the context of someone who found us and joined on their own, thanking them for choosing to join. That phrasing comes off very stilted in the Direct Add context.

For the custom text in direct add, I typically write something
personal to the person being added.
You can still do that, customizing the introduction to the message, then following following that with a "we've added you" version of the Welcome message.

There's no need to pester the person with two separate emails that arrive simultaneously.

Shal


 

Shal/Mark,

I don't want or need a separate welcome message for direct add. Both would have to contain the group guidelines (which are extensive) and the last thing I need is to maintain two copies of that as it changes through time. If not creating a direct-add message will assure that the regular welcome message gets sent to direct-add members, in fine with it. But if we are now going to be forced to have a separate direct-add message that goes out instead of the welcome messsge, there needs to be a better plan. It's bad enough to make me abandon premium membership if that goes into effect. It makes it more trouble than it's worth.

J

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 8, 2017, at 11:52 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

I don't understand at all why it would be left out.
Simple.

Two different messages for two different circumstances.

My Direct Add message is phrased in the context of "we've added you to our mailing list".

My Welcome Message, by contrast, is phrased in the context of someone who found us and joined on their own, thanking them for choosing to join. That phrasing comes off very stilted in the Direct Add context.

For the custom text in direct add, I typically write something
personal to the person being added.
You can still do that, customizing the introduction to the message, then following following that with a "we've added you" version of the Welcome message.

There's no need to pester the person with two separate emails that arrive simultaneously.

Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

Mark,

One wrinkle is that by having the default welcome message be auto
generated at the time it's sent, it's always up to date. That is, if
I generate the welcome message when a group is created, then if the
person changes the name of the group or creates subgroups, the
message is out of date/wrong. How should we handle that, if at all?
I think JohnF's answer is probably best: not at all in the message content itself, but with some kind of reminder where the action that affects the content was taken.

A more technical approach would be to create a set of "mail-merge" codes for the things that get customized in the message content. That would allow even customized text to be in sync with name changes. Ideally the formatting tool bar would have a button for them, a bit like inserting a special character.

Shal


 

J,

I don't want or need a separate welcome message for direct add. Both
would have to contain the group guidelines (which are extensive) and
the last thing I need is to maintain two copies of that as it changes
through time.
Maybe the problem is the drop-list approach to notice types, where a given message can only be assigned a single type.

What if instead of "types" there were "actions". For example: a member joins an unrestricted group, a member is accepted in a restricted group, a member accepts an invite, a member is Direct Add'd. Then as group admin you might have a generic "guidelines" message with all of those actions checked, and perhaps other messages tailored to just one or two of those actions.

That would give you the flexibility to do even some seemingly odd things, like sending the "Guidelines" message on the Member Removed action if you felt they should be told why they were removed.

Shal


 

Shal/Mark,

I think the solution might be to turn the whole thing on it's head and implement what virtually everyone clamors for, and laments it's absence, as soon as they arrive from yahoo: namely, 'scheduling' files to go out upon certain actions.

That way, people like me, who want a single welcome message rather than separate ones, could have it in a file and specify that it goes out upon direct add and joining or being approved for membership.

You could have as many messages (aka files) as you wanted for any occasion/action, but instead of having to specify each one as a 'type,' and having to specify one (or none) as 'active,' you would just pick the one you want to go out at the specific action ('pending subscription' or whatever) and if goes out.

You could have more than one file go out to new members (or upon whatever occasion). Having been allowed only one has been a real nuisaance. For example, I've been forced to include the group guidelines within the welcome message, which I'd rather not do. I'd rather send a short welcome message, a separate and longer message with the group guidelines, and a third one with a 'site map' to our group's files, wiki pages, and database so that they know right when they join what we have available. None of this is possible now automatically (unless you smush it all into one giant welcome message), but it would all be possible with the files driving this rather than the other way around.

The real problem currently. IMHO, is the false assumption of a 1-1 correspondence between actions and automatic messages - having to label a file/message for one and only one action, and conversely, having to pick one and only one (and also not zero) 'active' message per action. But it's not 1-1. You may want zero, one, or more than one message per action. And conversely, you may want a message to be triggered for more than one action. Let the files drive this instead and problem solved.

The only thing missing would be the 'member message' ability to send a chosen message outside of the automatically sent ones. That could be handled by a 'send file' function, where you browse files to be sent.

And think how happy all the befuddled people arriving from yahoo would be who can't understand why the superior groups.ip won't even let them 'schedule' files.

I'd scrap the whole member messsge thing as it currently exists and turn it upside down. That's my suggestion.

J

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 8, 2017, at 12:59 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

I don't want or need a separate welcome message for direct add. Both
would have to contain the group guidelines (which are extensive) and
the last thing I need is to maintain two copies of that as it changes
through time.
Maybe the problem is the drop-list approach to notice types, where a given message can only be assigned a single type.

What if instead of "types" there were "actions". For example: a member joins an unrestricted group, a member is accepted in a restricted group, a member accepts an invite, a member is Direct Add'd. Then as group admin you might have a generic "guidelines" message with all of those actions checked, and perhaps other messages tailored to just one or two of those actions.

That would give you the flexibility to do even some seemingly odd things, like sending the "Guidelines" message on the Member Removed action if you felt they should be told why they were removed.

Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

Hi All,

I've made the following changes:

- I've removed the requirement that there must be an active member notice. So you can now 'unset' any active member notice.
- For groups that did not have a welcome member notice, I've generated a default one. This is what was happening behind the scenes previously, so this will result in no change in perceived behavior.
- When a group or subgroup is created, we now automatically create the default welcome notice.
- For an action without an active member notice, nothing is sent out (so if I have 5 welcome notices and none are active, no welcome notice goes out. Same if I have 0 welcome notices).
- For direct adds and invites, if there is an active notice, that is shown in the editable text area (and will be updated appropriately). If there is no active notice, the text area will be blank, and a new, active notice will be created upon the add or invite.

I'm happy to revisit the whole member notice system, but I'm in the middle of several things right now, so I would ask that we push that off for awhile (API/Mobile app and the new search being the two big things along with a bunch of smaller things).

Thanks,
Mark


 

Mark?

Does this mean the welcome message no longer goes out to direct adds and invites? If so I'm going to have to delete my group's welcome message, create a no-type message with the same content, and send it out by hand to every new member, whether they found us and joined or were invited or added. I'm unwilling to maintain more than one (let alone THREE) duplicate welcome messages for these cases and i consider this situation, if I'm understanding it correctly, ultimately unacceptable. I understand there's no time for a redesign now but I'd urge you strongly not to eliminate the welcome message going out to invites and direct adds. Perhaps you could take an informal poll on this because I'd be very surprised if I'm alone. I also think some group owners are going to be in for a nasty surprise when they realize their welcome message has not been going out to adds or invites ( which will take them awhile to figure out, thus making the situation even worse, especially if the welcome message is where they include their group guidelines and the new members start inadvertently violating them).

J

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 8, 2017, at 2:31 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

I've made the following changes:

- I've removed the requirement that there must be an active member notice. So you can now 'unset' any active member notice.
- For groups that did not have a welcome member notice, I've generated a default one. This is what was happening behind the scenes previously, so this will result in no change in perceived behavior.
- When a group or subgroup is created, we now automatically create the default welcome notice.
- For an action without an active member notice, nothing is sent out (so if I have 5 welcome notices and none are active, no welcome notice goes out. Same if I have 0 welcome notices).
- For direct adds and invites, if there is an active notice, that is shown in the editable text area (and will be updated appropriately). If there is no active notice, the text area will be blank, and a new, active notice will be created upon the add or invite.

I'm happy to revisit the whole member notice system, but I'm in the middle of several things right now, so I would ask that we push that off for awhile (API/Mobile app and the new search being the two big things along with a bunch of smaller things).

Thanks,
Mark

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

ps Thanks, though, for fixing the required 'active' thing.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 8, 2017, at 2:40 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Mark?

Does this mean the welcome message no longer goes out to direct adds and invites? If so I'm going to have to delete my group's welcome message, create a no-type message with the same content, and send it out by hand to every new member, whether they found us and joined or were invited or added. I'm unwilling to maintain more than one (let alone THREE) duplicate welcome messages for these cases and i consider this situation, if I'm understanding it correctly, ultimately unacceptable. I understand there's no time for a redesign now but I'd urge you strongly not to eliminate the welcome message going out to invites and direct adds. Perhaps you could take an informal poll on this because I'd be very surprised if I'm alone. I also think some group owners are going to be in for a nasty surprise when they realize their welcome message has not been going out to adds or invites ( which will take them awhile to figure out, thus making the situation even worse, especially if the welcome message is where they include their group guidelines and the new members start inadvertently violating them).

J

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 8, 2017, at 2:31 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

I've made the following changes:

- I've removed the requirement that there must be an active member notice. So you can now 'unset' any active member notice.
- For groups that did not have a welcome member notice, I've generated a default one. This is what was happening behind the scenes previously, so this will result in no change in perceived behavior.
- When a group or subgroup is created, we now automatically create the default welcome notice.
- For an action without an active member notice, nothing is sent out (so if I have 5 welcome notices and none are active, no welcome notice goes out. Same if I have 0 welcome notices).
- For direct adds and invites, if there is an active notice, that is shown in the editable text area (and will be updated appropriately). If there is no active notice, the text area will be blank, and a new, active notice will be created upon the add or invite.

I'm happy to revisit the whole member notice system, but I'm in the middle of several things right now, so I would ask that we push that off for awhile (API/Mobile app and the new search being the two big things along with a bunch of smaller things).

Thanks,
Mark

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:40 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Does this mean the welcome message no longer goes out to direct adds and invites?

No. I did not change the behavior of the welcome message and direct adds/invites. I was only referring to the customized message that is sent with the invite or with the direct add.

Mark