Topics

moderated pending member notices going into spam more often than not - is there any fix?


 

I'm noticing now that approximately 2 out of 3, possibly even 3 out of 4, pending member notices go into the pending members' spam folders. Nearly every time someone tries to join, we do not receive the questionnaire back (which is requested in the pending member notice). Then I begin re-sending the notice, and still getting no response. "Here we go again." In most cases, I eventually have to contact the person outside the Groups.io system (even an owner message does not get through), using my private email, and either ask them to check their spam folder and/or just send them the notice personally. Without exception, the member answers immediately and says, "You were right, they were going into spam!"

This is starting to become a real PITA. is there *anything* that can be done on the Groups.io side to mitigate this? Perhaps not, but I did want to mention that it's been happening, and I wonder if other groups are having this problem.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Anita L
 

On my group which I have had for years. When I get a notice a person wants to join I email them directly from my own email with a few questions they have to answer before I let them join. It has worked well for years. I find I like this.
 
Anita  
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 1/6/2017 10:54:11 AM
Subject: [beta] pending member notices going into spam more often than not - is there any fix?
 

I'm noticing now that approximately 2 out of 3, possibly even 3 out of 4, pending member notices go into the pending members' spam folders. Nearly every time someone tries to join, we do not receive the questionnaire back (which is requested in the pending member notice). Then I begin re-sending the notice, and still getting no response. "Here we go again." In most cases, I eventually have to contact the person outside the Groups.io system (even an owner message does not get through), using my private email, and either ask them to check their spam folder and/or just send them the notice personally. Without exception, the member answers immediately and says, "You were right, they were going into spam!"

This is starting to become a real PITA. is there *anything* that can be done on the Groups.io side to mitigate this? Perhaps not, but I did want to mention that it's been happening, and I wonder if other groups are having this problem.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

 


 

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 08:06 am, atinalee@... wrote:
I find I like this.

Well, I don't, especially when you assume that the pending member notice is doing its job. If (as in yahoo) there were no pending member notice in the first place, one would not come to rely on it or assume that the member is receiving it.

There are many reasons to have the automatic notice. They include privacy (avoiding using one's personal email address to contact unknown entities); convenience (an automatic mechanism); logging (the response to the pending member notice is automatically logged on the member's page); communication (all moderators set to receive "owner messages" automatically receive the response); and probably more.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

It seems that a lot of spam filters don't currently like "groups.io" and I really have no idea why.  This is the first e-mail list where I've seen the frequency of this issue cropping up.

It would be nice if there were some way to at least notify those subscribing that they should put groups.io in their e-mail whitelists, but that constitutes a catch-22 because you'd be sending that from groups.io unless some mechanism could be put into place to send that particular message from another domain with the notation that this is being done because groups.io is being spam filtered by many e-mail providers at this time.

One would think that having Mark, or some other person that is in a position of "Groups.io Officialdom," reach out to some of the major e-mail providers about whitelisting might be effective.  It's easy enough to verify the existence of Groups.io and that it's not a spam factory.

Brian of the missing signature


 

I also thought of another advantage: consistency in the message sent out.

The automatic notice is a really nice feature, and it stands to get even better when Mark implements a questionnaire and automatic loading of the responses into the database. But it's worse than not having it at all if you have no idea whether or not the notice is going out. You wait for the member to respond, thus delaying their entrance into the group; you spend time and energy just wondering whether or not to reach out via private email; you force the member to search their spam file; etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. I'm tempted at this point to blow off the pending member notice completely and do it by hand, just because of all these failures.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Shal Farley
 

J,

I'm noticing now that approximately 2 out of 3, possibly even 3 out
of 4, pending member notices go into the pending members' spam
folders.
Can you discern any pattern as to the email service used by these would-be members? I know the email services jealously guard the exact details of how they discriminate spam from non-spam (no sense telling the spammers how to get through) but there may be known differences that Groups.io could follow, or specific steps the would-be member could take, and those may vary by email service.

I note, for example, that many commercial sites ask me to add their email address to my contacts list to ensure their notices get through to me. Maybe the pages shown when someone requests membership via web should have some advice concerning their spam folder (or does it already? - I haven't looked in quite a long time).

Without exception, the member answers immediately and says, "You were
right, they were going into spam!"
I hope that prompted them to mark the messages as "Not-spam" - that will improve future deliverability of notices to them, and in most services, to others using that service as well.

I know most email services use as many factors as they can gather to help discriminate spam from non-spam. That includes the reputation of messages from each sender - whether their prior messages have been marked as spam or not-spam by this or other users. I think this is why Mark was so concerned about being responsive to email services' Feed-Back Loop (FBL) reports concerning messages marked as spam.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


 

Shal,

This is so deja-vu! I think you asked me the same question about a pattern the last time around. No, I haven't noticed any. I was all set to blame it on yahoo's revenge, but the last one was a gmail address.

Our home page does at this point have an announcement that a questionnaire will be sent, and that if they don't receive it, to contact us at the owner address. I will add the suggestion to check spam. I've been avoiding that because it's not pretty.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

To add to Shal's observation I also have to believe that the actual e-mail service providers have to be "keeping an eye" on what their own users are repeatedly marking as "not spam" that was originally classified as spam as a part of refining their spam filtering.

Virtually all of these systems are set to learn based on what gets "de-classified" if they're running on individual machines, e.g. POPFile or SpamAssassin.  I'd have to believe that the systems used at the server level are equally trainable, if not exquisitely more so.

Brian


 

J,

No, I haven't noticed any. I was all set to blame it on yahoo's
revenge, but the last one was a gmail address.
All but one is still a pattern (statistically speaking).

I was wondering if it were specifically AOL, which has been a problem child. Not this time I guess.

I'll invoke Hanlon's razor rather than accuse Yahoo Mail of deliberately junking traffic from Groups.io.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


 

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 09:30 am, Shal Farley wrote:
All but one is still a pattern (statistically speaking).

True, but did I ever say "all but one"? If so, I didn't intend to. I said I couldn't see a pattern. I just happened to look at the most recent one. I was actually guessing it was yahoo, but when I went to look, I saw that it was gmail. That's all I meant. 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 9:34 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 09:30 am, Shal Farley wrote:
All but one is still a pattern (statistically speaking).

True, but did I ever say "all but one"? If so, I didn't intend to. I said I couldn't see a pattern. I just happened to look at the most recent one. I was actually guessing it was yahoo, but when I went to look, I saw that it was gmail. That's all I meant. 

I am surprised that Gmail had a false positive. They're usually really good with our emails.

To verify, I just checked a sample pending subscription email with spamassasin and nothing strange came up. Off-list, when this happens again, please send me the email addresses of the people whose messages are going in spam. Also, if it happens again in gmail, it'd be great to get a copy of the message headers (from the dropdown in Gmail, look for Show Original, then copy the message headers).

Thanks,
Mark


 

Mark,

I can email you the one latest email address right now, and will do that. I'll also see if I can get that person to forward me the pending-membership messages that went into her spam folder and will forward the header(s) to you if she does.

I'm fairly sure this has happened before with gmail addresses, but I'll keep better track from now on.

Thanks.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 03:07 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Off-list, when this happens again, please send me the email addresses of the people whose messages are going in spam.

Mark,

I will send you this info today, even though things have changed a bit with regards to the splitting (not sure whether you've been working on it). For the info of others, it turns out that one of the people whose emails always (or used to) split threads told me yesterday that all (he used the word "all," could be just "most") of his messages from my group are going into his spam folder. He is using yahoo email, like the other person whose email splits threads.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

...just realized I answered with respect to thread splitting in the thread about spam, in response to your request to send you THOSE emails. That's because this seems to be an intersection of the two problems.
J

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 8:54 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 03:07 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Off-list, when this happens again, please send me the email addresses of the people whose messages are going in spam.

Mark,

I will send you this info today, even though things have changed a bit with regards to the splitting (not sure whether you've been working on it). For the info of others, it turns out that one of the people whose emails always (or used to) split threads told me yesterday that all (he used the word "all," could be just "most") of his messages from my group are going into his spam folder. He is using yahoo email, like the other person whose email splits threads.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu