moderated Footer placement


Maria
 

On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 06:53 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
I like Maria's idea of separating the message-related links from the more system-related ones. With the current set of links I would propose putting the group footer in between "New Topic" and "Change Your Subscription".

I like that idea too ;) 

And if there is any way in individual emails in groups that force HTML for the message related links to be placed horizontally as they are in the digest, that would help further in that it wouldn't create a vertically distant separation from the footer.

We do include links in our footers so as to keep them shorter - but they link to pages we've set up on a secondary site that are publicly viewable. That said - as mentioned, even a 2 sentence footer on a small mobile screen can bury the message related links way too much and can end up affecting participation.

Maria


Maria
 

On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 06:54 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
I strongly disagree with this suggestion.

I second that. 

Maria


 

Anita, Tami,

But like Anita, I would like the option of removing some of the links
at the end of the emails. My group members don't need all those links.
I strongly disagree with this suggestion.

1) I don't like the inconsistent structure it would produce, where as a member of several groups I might have different features in different groups.

2) I do not think it is any group manager's place to limit my use of the features provided by those links.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


 

Mark,

So, I ask the group, where do you think it should go?
I like Maria's idea of separating the message-related links from the more system-related ones. With the current set of links I would propose putting the group footer in between "New Topic" and "Change Your Subscription".

I'll also offer the suggestion that it be possible to include a link with the group footer. That way the groups with a very long footer could instead cite the info by link rather than include all of it in every email.

The trick is that one would want the link to work even for email-only members and those who aren't logged in to Groups.io. Since most groups don't have public Wiki or Messages I'm not sure what to suggest. Perhaps yet another type of Member Notice ("Message Info") which, if present, is linked from the message footer.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


 

I think exactly the opposite. The links look like the end/bottom of the message, and very few people who don't actually intend to use them will read past them to what is often important fine print about the forum that should be easily viewable in every message.

My two cents as well.

J

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 4:02 PM, HR Tech via Groups.Io <m.conway11@...> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 09:37 am, J_Catlady wrote:
I disagree that the group message should be limited to the welcome message or other one-time announcement, especially if it constitutes a legal caveat or privacy warning.

I wasn't suggesting that groups not have important messages in their footer. I was suggesting additional measures that one can take to ensure that newbies see / read anything that is important - given the fact that gmail truncates things beyond a certain length ( long digests) and makes you click on them to view in full on desktop.

As for the digest - i think it's perfect as is. I wouldn't change a thing. That was my point. It works well there to have message, action links, then footer. Not sure why same logic can't apply to individual emails.

My main issue is that action links should be near the message you plan to act on (as Y! and others do it), and not buried under a footer. Even more so for newbies who may think the footer is the end of the message (as it would be say in a regular email with a legal disclaimer and as it is in the digest) and may not see the useful links that come with each individual email - especially on mobile.

My 2 cents.



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Maria
 

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 09:37 am, J_Catlady wrote:
I disagree that the group message should be limited to the welcome message or other one-time announcement, especially if it constitutes a legal caveat or privacy warning.

I wasn't suggesting that groups not have important messages in their footer. I was suggesting additional measures that one can take to ensure that newbies see / read anything that is important - given the fact that gmail truncates things beyond a certain length ( long digests) and makes you click on them to view in full on desktop.

As for the digest - i think it's perfect as is. I wouldn't change a thing. That was my point. It works well there to have message, action links, then footer. Not sure why same logic can't apply to individual emails.

My main issue is that action links should be near the message you plan to act on (as Y! and others do it), and not buried under a footer. Even more so for newbies who may think the footer is the end of the message (as it would be say in a regular email with a legal disclaimer and as it is in the digest) and may not see the useful links that come with each individual email - especially on mobile.

My 2 cents.


 

Agree.  Message, then footer, then links.  Would like ability to edit which links to show to group - there are quite a few.  Most of our members are so accustomed to them, they don't even pay attention and then ask for the info that is in the links.  



 

I agree the digest is a different story and perhaps the order could be reversed there, or something else done differently. 

I disagree that the group message should be limited to the welcome message or other one-time announcement, especially if it constitutes a legal caveat or privacy warning.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 5:32 AM, HR Tech via Groups.Io <m.conway11@...> wrote:
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 09:38 pm, J_Catlady wrote:

Obviously. But it needs to be seen by the new participants. It's a little blip in the big scheme of the rest of it and the annoyance of having to "scroll through it" is extremely minor compared to its importance.

Some thoughts: on the digest, the footer is on the bottom. Messages, links to participate and react to each message, then footer. And if you see your digests in gmail and they happen to be longer than gmail's threshold for truncation, you don't see the footer at all unless you click "view entire message". So that whole chunk of people who are on gmail, and on digest, and that's a lot, are not even seeing the footer unless they are interested in reading the content past message #11 or so. 

Visually, shmisually, roof and foundation; not buying that. The logical hierarchy is still individual message content, then the group's message content, then the overall Groups'io content.

On the digest the hierarchy is message, links to participate in your group, footer. I'm not sure why that ought to be different on an individual email. You can have digests with one message on it and that hierarchy stays the same.

In my mind the necessary hierarchy is: you read a post, you reply and react to it, and then you glance at that footer that you've seen many times before, and you probably ignore it no matter where it's placed, because you have other messages you want to reply to and take action with and you've seen it before.

I think if you look around and check what other individual notifications and emails from other services do, you'll find the action buttons/links come before footers (Y!, FB, Forums). I think factored in to that is the awareness that upwards of 60% of emails are being opened on mobile where you have limited screen space and time. It doesn't make sense to me to have a member work harder to participate because they are forced to scroll past something they've seen a hundred times.

If it's something that new members must see, then there are also other methods one can imploy - that may even get more attention: a welcome message, a pinned post, monthly/weekly reminders.

Maria



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Steph Mathews <smathews@...>
 

I am going to break it down how I think it should go.
 
a header called Group Membership links;
View/Reply to messages via email
View/reply to messages on website
Reply to sender via email
Reply to sender via website
 
Membership Subscription links
You are receiving all messages in this group.
(ink) change my subscription
Unsubscribe me.
Contact Group Owner/Moderator
 
Then place Groups.io links down here.
 

Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 5:35 PM
Subject: [beta] Footer placement

Hi All,

You may have noticed that I changed the placement of the group footer within the overall message footer. Previously, it appeared before the links. Now it appears at the bottom, after the links. I did this by request from someone who has a long group footer, which definitely works better after all the links. But I've received requests to return the footer to the previous position. So, I ask the group, where do you think it should go?

Thanks,
Mark


Maria
 

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 03:50 pm, David P. Dillard wrote:
I, on the other hand, value having as much information as possible about my group and groups in general, so I would like these links to be retained 

Me too.

Another idea is for the "change your subscription" "contact group owner" "terms of service" and the "unsubscribe" links to go after the footer ? As those aren't immediate reply/view/respond actions, (preferably placed horizontally if at all possible). But keep the action links right after the message as they are on the digest.

Maria


Maria
 

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 09:38 pm, J_Catlady wrote:

Obviously. But it needs to be seen by the new participants. It's a little blip in the big scheme of the rest of it and the annoyance of having to "scroll through it" is extremely minor compared to its importance.

Some thoughts: on the digest, the footer is on the bottom. Messages, links to participate and react to each message, then footer. And if you see your digests in gmail and they happen to be longer than gmail's threshold for truncation, you don't see the footer at all unless you click "view entire message". So that whole chunk of people who are on gmail, and on digest, and that's a lot, are not even seeing the footer unless they are interested in reading the content past message #11 or so. 

Visually, shmisually, roof and foundation; not buying that. The logical hierarchy is still individual message content, then the group's message content, then the overall Groups'io content.

On the digest the hierarchy is message, links to participate in your group, footer. I'm not sure why that ought to be different on an individual email. You can have digests with one message on it and that hierarchy stays the same.

In my mind the necessary hierarchy is: you read a post, you reply and react to it, and then you glance at that footer that you've seen many times before, and you probably ignore it no matter where it's placed, because you have other messages you want to reply to and take action with and you've seen it before.

I think if you look around and check what other individual notifications and emails from other services do, you'll find the action buttons/links come before footers (Y!, FB, Forums). I think factored in to that is the awareness that upwards of 60% of emails are being opened on mobile where you have limited screen space and time. It doesn't make sense to me to have a member work harder to participate because they are forced to scroll past something they've seen a hundred times.

If it's something that new members must see, then there are also other methods one can imploy - that may even get more attention: a welcome message, a pinned post, monthly/weekly reminders.

Maria


 

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 09:08 pm, HR Tech wrote:
I think that once a participant sees the footer,  she/he isn't going to read it each time, they get a message.

Obviously. But it needs to be seen by the new participants. It's a little blip in the big scheme of the rest of it and the annoyance of having to "scroll through it" is extremely minor compared to its importance.

Visually, shmisually, roof and foundation; not buying that. The logical hierarchy is still individual message content, then the group's message content, then the overall Groups'io content.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Maria
 

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 08:28 pm, J_Catlady wrote:
To me it boils down to which thing is more important for users to see that they might otherwise skip. In other words, what needs to be most *in their face*.

I think that once a participant sees the footer,  she/he isn't going to read it each time, they get a message. They've read it once, the group owner needs to put it there for legal reasons, disclaimers etc, but as a reader/participant I am going to ignore it after the first time I've read it unless it has something in it that I need. As an owner, I can rest assured that my footer is there and I've done my part.

As a user/member what I do need, and what is a priority to me, are my action links/buttons so I can do what I want to do in the group: participate. To have to scroll past a footer on iphone each time I want to click "reply to group" or "reply to sender" or "view online" or "new topic" is tiring and affects my desire to participate and makes me work harder to contribute to the group.

Visually, I also think that the horizontal shape of the top message followed by the vertical structure of the links and closed by the horizontal shape of the footer grounds the individual email more - like a roof and a foundation.

Maybe if the links could be horizontal instead of vertical they wouldn't feel like they separate the message from the footer too much? Like the way Y! does it.

And then maybe the links being before the footer wouldn't feel like such a difference from before?

Maria


 

There's also triage. A group's signature message I think in general tends to be shorter than the whole slew of links, so it makes sense to let it go first. It's just a small blip.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

To me it boils down to which thing is more important for users to see that they might otherwise skip. In other words, what needs to be most *in their face*.

Users are not going to skip over the io links if they need or want to do something; they're motivated to get to them. But group notices are generally something they're not motivated to read, even though those notices may actually in many cases be more important for them to read - legal caveats, such as the one in most health and/or pet groups that the information in the group should not be considered medical or veterinary advice and they should seek the advice of their own doctor or vet; warnings that a group is public and that they should take care to protect their privacy when they post; etc. 

This is why I feel strongly that the group message needs to come first. There's also a certain logical/aesthetic hierarchy that putting the group message first honors: individual messages in the group at the lowest level, then the group's overall message, then the user's links to "all their groups" etc. Reversing the order of the last two doesn't make much sense to me.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Maria
 

On Y! the footer came after the links, and the links on individual emails were sorted horizontally not vertically. So you could get to them easily and quickly - as they help you participate in your group.

On mobile - to see the links after the footer on individual emails, involves a substantial amount of scrolling each time to get to your action links.

The footer is repetitive and static, yet it has to be there. The links are necessary in order to take actions that help people participate in the group. On mobile they get buried by a footer even when the footer is only a few sentences long. Especially on the iphones with smaller screens.

For those reasons, I personally prefer links first and footer last.

Maria


Tami D <artfulmuze@...>
 

Personally it doesn't matter to me where it goes. 
But like Anita, I would like the option of removing some of the links at the end of the emails. My group members don't need all those links.

Thanks for all you're doing for IO Groups

Tami Davis



------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Fletcher" <markf@corp.groups.io>
Sent: 12/16/2016 5:35:06 PM
Subject: [beta] Footer placement

Hi All,

You may have noticed that I changed the placement of the group footer within the overall message footer. Previously, it appeared before the links. Now it appears at the bottom, after the links. I did this by request from someone who has a long group footer, which definitely works better after all the links. But I've received requests to return the footer to the previous position. So, I ask the group, where do you think it should go?

Thanks,
Mark


Anita L
 

I want to change what I wrote. I think now I like the groups footer after the iolinks. That seems fine.
 
Just wondering still if all those iolinks are necessary?
 
Anita  
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 12/16/2016 6:35:10 PM
Subject: [beta] Footer placement
 
Hi All,

You may have noticed that I changed the placement of the group footer within the overall message footer. Previously, it appeared before the links. Now it appears at the bottom, after the links. I did this by request from someone who has a long group footer, which definitely works better after all the links. But I've received requests to return the footer to the previous position. So, I ask the group, where do you think it should go?

Thanks,
Mark
 


 

Agree. Message, then footer, then links.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

I think the group footer should follow the message(s), then the site footer. Makes sense to me for them to be in that configuration due to priority.

Duane