locked Issues with thread renaming


 

If you rename a thread, the old name still stays in the activity log, which is not a huge issue. The real issue is that when people reply to messages, the old thread name is used and thus a new thread is created redundantly. This happens both from the web UI and via email replies.


 

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:34 PM, Nikolay Kolev <nikolaynkolev@...> wrote:
If you rename a thread, the old name still stays in the activity log, which is not a huge issue. The real issue is that when people reply to messages, the old thread name is used and thus a new thread is created redundantly. This happens both from the web UI and via email replies.
_._,_._,_

Yes, this is a known issue, and a bit of a tricky one at that. Here's what's happening:

- A thread is started, some emails get sent out with Subject Line A
- The thread's subject line is changed to Subject Line B
- One of the messages that was sent out is replied to, still containing Subject Line A
- We know that the message belongs to the thread
- We compare the subject line of the thread (now Subject Line B) with the message's Subject Line A to see if we should start a new thread
- They're different, so we assumed the person that sent the email changed the subject line because they wanted to start a new thread, so that's what we do

I can think of a couple different ways of dealing with this:

- When you change a thread's subject, have the system send out an email to the group saying 'Hey, this is the new subject, start replying to this email instead'
- We just disable the subject line check for threads that have had their subject's changed.  Everything will work fine except if someone decides they want to start a new thread by replying to an existing message and changing the subject.
- Somehow we keep track of any subject changes and use those when figuring out if a subject line has changed. This is really complicated.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Mark


 

How about having a thread GUID in each sent out message that will be used to put the message under the proper thread?

A feature allowing merging of threads would be lovely, too, as one of my thread names had a typo, I keep fixing it and renaming each new thread and ended up having a gazillion separate threads with no means to merge them other than using tags, but then tags don't persist now either so I need to keep manually retagging each reply to contain the conversation at least under a tag vs having it everywhere.


 

And one more thing - although I understand the current challenge and complication with email replies, this bug exists even when you reply on the web, which is much easier to make work properly and sooner, I think.


 

Mark,

- When you change a thread's subject, have the system send out an email
to the group saying 'Hey, this is the new subject, start replying to
this email instead'
Ick. And it likely wouldn't work - members are apt to read messages in order and may have already replied to the thread before seeing this message.

- We just disable the subject line check for threads that have had their
subject's changed. Everything will work fine except if someone decides
they want to start a new thread by replying to an existing message and
changing the subject.
That's probably a reasonable compromise. Maybe the disable could be for a limited duration (a few days) - replies later than that may as well start a new thread.

- Somehow we keep track of any subject changes and use those when
figuring out if a subject line has changed. This is really complicated.
Maybe only the most recent prior subject line, rather than the full history of changes.

Either way, this points back to a need for a mechanism to explicitly break and connect threads. Er, topics. Provides a means to repair any unfortunate consequences of whatever mechanism is chosen for handling Subject edits.
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/message/502

-- Shal


 

Nikolay,

How about having a thread GUID in each sent out message that will be
used to put the message under the proper thread?
That's similar to how it actually works now. Except the GUID that is used is the Message-ID header field. That GUID is placed in the References and/or In-Reply-To header field of any reply. So if a given message is a reply there is never any ambiguity about what message it was in reply to. Those header fields are part of the internet email standard, and are supported by just about every email service or software.

The thing that Groups.io does with the Subject line is that it ignores that information and starts a new thread if the Subject line of this message doesn't match that of the prior message(s).

A feature allowing merging of threads would be lovely, too,
I certainly agree with that. And deliberately breaking them too.
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/message/502
(scroll about midway down in that message)

-- Shal


 

- Somehow we keep track of any subject changes and use those when
figuring out if a subject line has changed. This is really complicated.
Maybe only the most recent prior subject line, rather than the full history of changes.

Either way, this points back to a need for a mechanism to explicitly break and connect
threads. Er, topics. Provides a means to repair any unfortunate consequences of
whatever mechanism is chosen for handling Subject edits.
I agree on this. We have some subjects that see to be often repeated in unrelated threads. While the current string should be able to stay connected, I don't necessarily want it connected to the last time that subject line was used.
Dano


 

Dano,

I agree on this. We have some subjects that see to be often repeated
in unrelated threads. While the current string should be able to stay
connected, I don't necessarily want it connected to the last time
that subject line was used.
That should be a less frequent occurrence in Groups.io than in Yahoo Groups. Yahoo Groups would add a message to a thread if either a) the subject line matches, or b) the header fields show a reply-to relationship.

In Groups.io the new message is connected to an existing topic only if both (a) and (b) are true. So if a member composes a new message (not a reply) with a common subject line, like "Help", his message won't get connected to any existing topic in Groups.io.

-- Shal


 

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 12:32 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

>- Somehow we keep track of any subject changes and use those when
>figuring out if a subject line has changed. This is really complicated.

Maybe only the most recent prior subject line, rather than the full history of changes.


A solution that I think will work was just staring me in the face. Background: we have a thread object in the database that is separate from the individual messages. It has a subject, which is taken from the subject of the first message in the thread. When the subject for a thread is edited, this is the field that is changed in the database.

Right now, when we get a message that's part of a thread, we compare the subject of the message with the thread object's subject to see if they're different. If they are, we start a new thread (create a new thread object, etc). But if I just change it so that it compares the subject of the new message with the message that it was a reply to, we should be ok. If the thread's subject is changed, that doesn't affect this.

One question: if I change the subject of a thread, should we change the subject of any message we receive to the thread after that before we send it to the group? Say I start a thread with a message containing 'Subject A'. I then change the subject on the website using the Edit Subject feature to 'Subject B'. Someone replies to the already sent out existing message, which contains 'Subject A'. Before we send the new message back to the group, should we change the subject to 'Subject B'? I'm thinking yes. Thoughts?


Either way, this points back to a need for a mechanism to explicitly break and connect threads. Er, topics. Provides a means to repair any unfortunate consequences of whatever mechanism is chosen for handling Subject edits.
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/message/502

Working on it. Splitting a thread is almost ready. Combining two threads will be trickier, if for no other reason than figuring out a good user interface for how to do that.

Thanks,
Mark 


Linda
 

Hi Mark, you asked:
"One question: if I change the subject of a thread, should we change the subject of any message we receive to the thread after that before we send it to the group? Say I start a thread with a message containing 'Subject A'. I then change the subject on the website using the Edit Subject feature to 'Subject B'. Someone replies to the already sent out existing message, which contains 'Subject A'. Before we send the new message back to the group, should we change the subject to 'Subject B'? I'm thinking yes. Thoughts?"
 
I like it.  Will it work after an archived subject is 'edited', as when the change is a correction of a typo or spelling, for instance?
 
Thanks,
Linda
 


ro-esp
 

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 09:46 am, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:34 PM, Nikolay Kolev <nikolaynkolev@gmail.com>
wrote:

If you rename a thread, the old name still stays in the activity log,
which is not a huge issue. The real issue is that when people reply to
messages, the old thread name is used and thus a new thread is created
redundantly. This happens both from the web UI and via email replies.
Mark answered:
I can think of a couple different ways of dealing with this:

- When you change a thread's subject, have the system send out an email to
the group saying 'Hey, this is the new subject, start replying to this
email instead'
hmm

- We just disable the subject line check for threads that have had their subject's changed.
Yes, if I change the subjectline, it means I *want* the messages to be findable under the NEW subjectline, not buried under a bunch of other messages with the OLD one. [Ideally, changing is done in the "topic B (was:topic A)" format ].
Also, if I change the subject to an existing one, chances are I *want* the message to be listed under that.

Worse still: if I send two replies from the same digest, I want them to have different subjects. I *don't* want the second or third to be listed under the subjectline of the first one (open door? Tell that to googlegroups..)

Everything will work fine except if someone decides they want to start a new thread by replying to an existing message and
changing the subject.
?? do you mean "NOT changing the subject"?

groetjes, Ronaldo


cshenk1@...
 

Hi Mark, sorry I think I just sent a blank.  New to Groups.io.  I can see the way to quote in another group.  This one must be HTML then and a manual copy paste is easy for the sighted.

 

> A solution that I think will work was just staring me in the face. Background: we have a thread object in the database that is separate from the individual messages. It has a subject, which is taken from > the subject of the first message in the thread. When the subject for a thread is edited, this is the field that is changed in the database.


> Right now, when we get a message that's part of a thread, we compare the subject of the message with the thread object's subject to see if they're different. If they are, we start a new thread (create a > new thread object, etc). But if I just change it so that it compares the subject of the new message with the message that it was a reply to, we should be ok. If the thread's subject is changed, that           > doesn't affect this.

> One question: if I change the subject of a thread, should we change the subject of any message we receive to the thread after that before we send it to the group? Say I start a thread with a message  > containing 'Subject A'. I then change the subject on the website using the Edit Subject feature to 'Subject B'. Someone replies to the already sent out existing message, which contains 'Subject A'.         > Before we send the new message back to the group, should we change the subject to 'Subject B'? I'm thinking yes. Thoughts?
 
(Manually added quoters).  This sparks a thought, several actually so bear with me.
 
This might be the hook that allows correctly typing an 'OFFER' to a 'TAKEN' if the taken isn't an exact match in subject line.  Has potential for us Freecycle folks.
 
I don't know if you worked much with that set.  We are a pretty sizable block.  The ones on Yahoo are not affiliated with Freecycle.org but most of us are affiliated with ModTools (Ed Hibbert) and a significant number of us also use TrashNothing in tandem with our Yahoogroup.  What happens in basic is a person posts on Yahoo (via whatever means, email, logged in direct etc.)  then it passed to Yahoo where ModTools picks it up and sends it to TrashNothing.  If posted at Trashnothing, ModTools snags it and tosses it to Yahoo.  Basically a dual homed single site.
 
Is there potential for us to use something like ModTools to do the same with Groups.io?  If so, I'd be willing to test it with a smaller live Freecycle already homed in both places.  If it works, I can see if my co-owner in the bigger Freecycle would like to try it.  I also have a Café that could be used for testing after a basic test was done. 
 
If this is old news and not interested, let me know.  If it's new and seems of interest, I can work off line with you, Ed, and Andrew Trusty (TrashNothing).
 
And here's a real Café also on ModTools but not on TrashNothing:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/VaBeachCommunityCafe/info
 
  Carol 
 
 
 
 
 


vickie <vickie_00@...>
 

Carol, 

Is this the same ModTools Edward is charging mods $5.00 to use for each Y- group?

It it is, perhaps Mark can create his own Modtools. 
 

´
Vickie

 








From: "cshenk1@..." <cshenk1@...>
To: beta@groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 11:15 AM
Subject: [beta] Re: Issues with thread renaming

Hi Mark, sorry I think I just sent a blank.  New to Groups.io.  I can see the way to quote in another group.  This one must be HTML then and a manual copy paste is easy for the sighted.
 
> A solution that I think will work was just staring me in the face. Background: we have a thread object in the database that is separate from the individual messages. It has a subject, which is taken from > the subject of the first message in the thread. When the subject for a thread is edited, this is the field that is changed in the database.

> Right now, when we get a message that's part of a thread, we compare the subject of the message with the thread object's subject to see if they're different. If they are, we start a new thread (create a > new thread object, etc). But if I just change it so that it compares the subject of the new message with the message that it was a reply to, we should be ok. If the thread's subject is changed, that           > doesn't affect this.

> One question: if I change the subject of a thread, should we change the subject of any message we receive to the thread after that before we send it to the group? Say I start a thread with a message  > containing 'Subject A'. I then change the subject on the website using the Edit Subject feature to 'Subject B'. Someone replies to the already sent out existing message, which contains 'Subject A'.         > Before we send the new message back to the group, should we change the subject to 'Subject B'? I'm thinking yes. Thoughts?
 
(Manually added quoters).  This sparks a thought, several actually so bear with me.
 
This might be the hook that allows correctly typing an 'OFFER' to a 'TAKEN' if the taken isn't an exact match in subject line.  Has potential for us Freecycle folks.
 
I don't know if you worked much with that set.  We are a pretty sizable block.  The ones on Yahoo are not affiliated with Freecycle.org but most of us are affiliated with ModTools (Ed Hibbert) and a significant number of us also use TrashNothing in tandem with our Yahoogroup.  What happens in basic is a person posts on Yahoo (via whatever means, email, logged in direct etc.)  then it passed to Yahoo where ModTools picks it up and sends it to TrashNothing.  If posted at Trashnothing, ModTools snags it and tosses it to Yahoo.  Basically a dual homed single site.
 
Is there potential for us to use something like ModTools to do the same with Groups.io?  If so, I'd be willing to test it with a smaller live Freecycle already homed in both places.  If it works, I can see if my co-owner in the bigger Freecycle would like to try it.  I also have a Café that could be used for testing after a basic test was done. 
 
If this is old news and not interested, let me know.  If it's new and seems of interest, I can work off line with you, Ed, and Andrew Trusty (TrashNothing).
 
And here's a real Café also on ModTools but not on TrashNothing:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/VaBeachCommunityCafe/info
 
  Carol 
 
 
 
 
 



cshenk1@...
 

Hi Vickie,

> Is this the same ModTools Edward is charging mods $5.00 to use for each Y- group?

> If it is, perhaps Mark can create his own Modtools. 
 
Same ModTools.  Maybe Mark can but it's a big task and seems he has enough to do on his own already with the existing programming.
  Carol  
 
 

 


vickie <vickie_00@...>
 

Thanks for confirming Carol..
 Mark is a programmer, so hopefully he can come up with something . 
Perhaps Mark can add it to his to do list.
Personally I am not willing to pay $5.00 for each of my groups to use modtools.
 



´
Vickie

 








From: "cshenk1@..." <cshenk1@...>
To: beta@groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 2:26 PM
Subject: [beta] Re: Issues with thread renaming

Hi Vickie,
> Is this the same ModTools Edward is charging mods $5.00 to use for each Y- group?
> If it is, perhaps Mark can create his own Modtools. 
 
Same ModTools.  Maybe Mark can but it's a big task and seems he has enough to do on his own already with the existing programming.
  Carol  
 
 
 



 

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:06 PM, Linda Star-Freedman <donlin2@...> wrote:
I like it.  Will it work after an archived subject is 'edited', as when the change is a correction of a typo or spelling, for instance?
 
Yes, it should work in that case.

Thanks,
Mark 


 

Hi Carol,


On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 8:15 AM, <cshenk1@...> wrote:

Hi Mark, sorry I think I just sent a blank.  New to Groups.io.  I can see the way to quote in another group.  This one must be HTML then and a manual copy paste is easy for the sighted.

You can force all your messages on the website to be plain text (or Markdown if you prefer), by going to your profile (https://groups.io/editprofile) and changing your Post Preference. Or you can set an individual reply or post to that by using the drop down in the bottom right corner of the post box.
 
This might be the hook that allows correctly typing an 'OFFER' to a 'TAKEN' if the taken isn't an exact match in subject line.  Has potential for us Freecycle folks.

While I'm vaguely aware of the Freecycle groups, I don't know anything about how they work, so I'd have to research this.

Thanks,
Mark 


cshenk1@...
 

Hi Mark and thank you.

I can see how to quote here now. Oddly the digest had the other copies of my message really jumbled up.

For freecycles, in basic they are a 'keep it green' where people locally offer things they do not need but are too good to toss out. They get posted to locals and if someone ants it, they respond back privately. You can also ask for stuff and people reply back privately if they have it. Main difference is it all has to be free (not the same as the selling groups like the BST here).

There's as with any larger block group some politics to it. This very issue is why many may want to at least dual home a group here as they check it out.

In the USA, the Freecycle.org owner tried to pretty much take over the yahoogroups owners (which Yahoo now ignores after they lost in court in the USA). It's a non-issue but a search will be confusing at first about that. Probably more pertinent is as a block when Neo came in and things were not there, we moved and shaped what we needed as a block fast and it got fixed. They just needed to know what we wanted. Most of that, seems to already *be* here.

The modtools tie in is we can easily traffic 1,000 messages a month and have to be able to moderate based on rules. ModTools allows those features (but is used for other types of groups as well). An example is we normally won't take a person off moderation until after they have posted some locally defined number of OFFER posts. ModTools counts them per user for us. Some need to control how many WANTED posts are made per month so ModTools counts those per user too. Other frills we need. Subject lines in order to make that work, have to start with a specific keyword and the Freecycle folks do all that training with ModTools allowing us to reject with a variety of crafted pre-responses we make up on our own.

I do not personally think it's worth your time to make your own version. Freecycle groups by and large are happy to pay a nominal 5$ a year for each group they use it with (I have 7, only 2 are freecycles and 1 café are on modtools). The more value for you would be in seeing if you can tie to ModTools (free I am sure) like TrashNothing has and allow it to interface a dual homed site so we can test.

If this is of interest, we can ask Ed to make default OFF until one of us clicks 'turn that on' and I'd be happy to be a test bed. That way all that happens on your end if fed traffic via a 3rd party tool by those who ask for it as they test it out. In fact, Ed could hard code it to specific groups for testing for a bit I am sure.

For right now, you have only one 'freecycle' and it's never going to function as it's not setup as other than that name. I have a test one that if we go live, has to be deleted because it's not really a local thing but more by name a 200 mile swatch of the country but that's ok for testing just what clicks I need to make to setup a real one. (grin). Biggest miss on my test Freecycle here was no way to send an automatied message to a pending member. If it were tied to ModTools, I can do that from there for the 3 groups on that.

Carol

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 04:27 pm, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi Carol,


On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 8:15 AM, <cshenk1@cox.net> wrote:

Hi Mark, sorry I think I just sent a blank. New to Groups.io. I can see
the way to quote in another group. This one must be HTML then and a manual
copy paste is easy for the sighted.

You can force all your messages on the website to be plain text (or
Markdown if you prefer), by going to your profile (
https://groups.io/editprofile) and changing your Post Preference. Or you
can set an individual reply or post to that by using the drop down in the
bottom right corner of the post box.


This might be the hook that allows correctly typing an 'OFFER' to a
'TAKEN' if the taken isn't an exact match in subject line. Has potential
for us Freecycle folks.
While I'm vaguely aware of the Freecycle groups, I don't know anything
about how they work, so I'd have to research this.

Thanks,
Mark


 

Mark,

Working on it. Splitting a thread is almost ready. Combining two threads
will be trickier, if for no other reason than figuring out a good user
interface for how to do that.
A cut/paste type metaphor might be simplest and most familiar to people. The moderator navigates to the thread they want to move and operates some affordance to "pick up" this thread, then navigates to the target thread and operates some affordance to "paste" the first thread onto this one. If the moderator doesn't complete the operation before session end then nothing happens (the first thread is unchanged).

A drag 'n drop metaphor might also be useful, but that assumes that the moderator is comfortable navigating two browser windows (or tabs) and that your code can communicate across them. Both of those assumptions seem more advanced.

-- Shal


 

Carol & Mark,

This might be the hook that allows correctly typing an 'OFFER' to a
'TAKEN' if the taken isn't an exact match in subject line. Has
potential for us Freecycle folks.
This might be done with a slight change to the HashTag mechanism in Groups.io.

If the subject line contained #OFFER or #TAKEN, and those hashtags could somehow be defined as related tags so that messages with either tag (or any tag in the related set) were treated as if they were in the same thread, then each offer and its corresponding taken message would naturally group as the same thread. Same idea for the WANTED/RECEIVED pair.

In the Messages lists (and the opened thread/message) perhaps the union of the tags (#OFFER only, until the #TAKEN is posted, then both) should be shown as the Subject line.

Er, Mark, shouldn't hashtags show in Message View and Expanded Message View as well as Thread View? They don't seem to now.

This would have the further property of allowing email members to follow only the #OFFER and #WANTED tags, and not be bothered with the others. If they want to know the status then they need only click on the "View this message" link in the message footer and see if there's a #TAKEN or #RECEIVED in that thread. Members who read the group's web pages would have it even easier, as the hashtags are already shown in the Thread View list.

If the OP wants to post the #TAKEN notice via the group's web pages he/she would need a way to add the #TAKEN hashtag. Whether that would be a part of the Reply mechanism or some other affordance I'm not sure.

If the #OFFER had a longer keep duration, and the #TAKEN tag had a shorter one, and the first expiration deletes the thread, that would provide a nice automated clean-up of the group's archives. Each group could set its own policy for how long #OFFERs are retained, and items that are #TAKEN could be taken down promptly.

-- Shal