Topics

moderated maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages


 

i make this request not only because of my ill-fated limerick this morning, which I copy/pasted from a Word doc, and which appeared here with extra line spaces, but because the problem occurs frequently in my group as well: when someone copy/pastes a Word doc into a message, the formatting is often all screwed up, including, but not necessarily limited to, the addition of extra line (or paragraph) breaks. I don't know if anything can be done about this, but will remain hopeful.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 05:06 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
i make this request not only because of my ill-fated limerick this morning, which I copy/pasted from a Word doc, and which appeared here with extra line spaces, but because the problem occurs frequently in my group as well: when someone copy/pastes a Word doc into a message, the formatting is often all screwed up, including, but not necessarily limited to, the addition of extra line (or paragraph) breaks. I don't know if anything can be done about this, but will remain hopeful.
--
I would like to offer this as an add-on for pasting improvements needed. Please allow pasting an image into a "post" online.
 
--
Gerald


 

J,

i make this request not only because of my ill-fated limerick this morning, which I copy/pasted from a Word doc, and which appeared here with extra line spaces,

Interesting. I see what you mean on the web interface, but in Thunderbird and in Gmail's web interface it came out as you probably expected:


So I think this has something to do with the paragraph style formatting. In particular, the second and third lines are represented in the HTML as one paragraph with a line break between them; whereas the first, fourth and fifth lines are separate paragraphs. Groups.io is displaying the four paragraphs of your limerick with some spacing between.

If the paragraph formatting in your word document has no spacing above or below you may have separate paragraphs that visually appear the same as line breaks.

Shal


 

Shal, thanks but I don't know what you're talking about. LOL.

Yeah, I saw that the emailed version of the message came out fine. The problem is that people often compose long, detailed messages in my group, and many of them do it in Word and then copy and paste. Any invisible formatting characters that work their way into their Word doc are just that: invisible. So I often find myself going in and removing extra line spacing and other things from their posts.

The same applies to their auto-sigs. If the person copies the text for their auto-sig from a document they've created (which is common in our group, because auto-sigs carry a lot of medical information about the cat and often people copy it from some other place), it's a mess. Sometimes I've gone in and used the "remove formatting" tool on the sig. Maybe that's possible with their messages ("posts") too, I'm now thinking. But it would be nice if this did not have to be done.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

J,

Shal, thanks but I don't know what you're talking about. LOL.
Sorry about that. But what's important is that Mark will (hopefully).

Short version: Groups.io's web view seems to be ignoring some of the HTML parameters that tell it how much space to put between paragraphs (zero, in your limerick).

It is probably more of a limitation than a bug - I suspect it results from a deliberate "sanitizing" of the HTML. But perhaps it can be corrected for this problem.

Shal


Ken Schweizer
 

Hi J,

 

It is a Microsoft Word idiosyncrasy. When you press Enter Microsoft Word thinks you want to create a new paragraph. It's the (IMO) stupid default behavior to then put a gap between the two lines and I haven't been able to find a way to go back to the old, normal, word.

If you want to simply put a single line between the two press SHIFT + ENTER rather than just Enter. There are several Macros that will do it automatically for you, but you should be proficient in VB to implement them.

 

As to the other formatting issues I "believe" it is an Internet thing. We had the same issues when trying to copy a Word outline to Yahoo groups. In order to get a pseudo indent, I had to replace the spaces with a "." (dot or period).  Maybe someone who is familiar with the way the Internet handles multiple spaces can answer your question better than I.

 

Ken

 

“You do what you can for as long as you can, and when you finally can’t, you do the next best thing. You back up but you don’t give up.” ―Chuck Yeager

 

From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of J_Catlady
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 3:07 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: [beta] maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages #request

 

i make this request not only because of my ill-fated limerick this morning, which I copy/pasted from a Word doc, and which appeared here with extra line spaces, but because the problem occurs frequently in my group as well: when someone copy/pastes a Word doc into a message, the formatting is often all screwed up, including, but not necessarily limited to, the addition of extra line (or paragraph) breaks. I don't know if anything can be done about this, but will remain hopeful.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Maybe. But this doesn’t help my group members and doesn’t explain why it comes out fine in gmail. It’s invisible after the Word doc is created, edited, and otherwise futzed with until the member seems it acceptable for posting. Then, voila, all their hard work down the drain when they see how the post appears.


On Sep 1, 2019, at 7:43 PM, Ken Schweizer <kensch888@...> wrote:

Hi J,

 

It is a Microsoft Word idiosyncrasy. When you press Enter Microsoft Word thinks you want to create a new paragraph. It's the (IMO) stupid default behavior to then put a gap between the two lines and I haven't been able to find a way to go back to the old, normal, word.

If you want to simply put a single line between the two press SHIFT + ENTER rather than just Enter. There are several Macros that will do it automatically for you, but you should be proficient in VB to implement them.

 

As to the other formatting issues I "believe" it is an Internet thing. We had the same issues when trying to copy a Word outline to Yahoo groups. In order to get a pseudo indent, I had to replace the spaces with a "." (dot or period).  Maybe someone who is familiar with the way the Internet handles multiple spaces can answer your question better than I.

 

Ken

 

“You do what you can for as long as you can, and when you finally can’t, you do the next best thing. You back up but you don’t give up.” ―Chuck Yeager

 

From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of J_Catlady
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 3:07 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: [beta] maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages #request

 

i make this request not only because of my ill-fated limerick this morning, which I copy/pasted from a Word doc, and which appeared here with extra line spaces, but because the problem occurs frequently in my group as well: when someone copy/pastes a Word doc into a message, the formatting is often all screwed up, including, but not necessarily limited to, the addition of extra line (or paragraph) breaks. I don't know if anything can be done about this, but will remain hopeful.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

And also, there’s something inconsistent about this. In my limerick, I clearly used “return” to create new lines. They came out fine in my Word doc. But in some seemingly random subset, extra paragraph breaks appeared in the gio version.


On Sep 1, 2019, at 7:48 PM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Maybe. But this doesn’t help my group members and doesn’t explain why it comes out fine in gmail. It’s invisible after the Word doc is created, edited, and otherwise futzed with until the member seems it acceptable for posting. Then, voila, all their hard work down the drain when they see how the post appears.


On Sep 1, 2019, at 7:43 PM, Ken Schweizer <kensch888@...> wrote:

Hi J,

 

It is a Microsoft Word idiosyncrasy. When you press Enter Microsoft Word thinks you want to create a new paragraph. It's the (IMO) stupid default behavior to then put a gap between the two lines and I haven't been able to find a way to go back to the old, normal, word.

If you want to simply put a single line between the two press SHIFT + ENTER rather than just Enter. There are several Macros that will do it automatically for you, but you should be proficient in VB to implement them.

 

As to the other formatting issues I "believe" it is an Internet thing. We had the same issues when trying to copy a Word outline to Yahoo groups. In order to get a pseudo indent, I had to replace the spaces with a "." (dot or period).  Maybe someone who is familiar with the way the Internet handles multiple spaces can answer your question better than I.

 

Ken

 

“You do what you can for as long as you can, and when you finally can’t, you do the next best thing. You back up but you don’t give up.” ―Chuck Yeager

 

From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of J_Catlady
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 3:07 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: [beta] maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages #request

 

i make this request not only because of my ill-fated limerick this morning, which I copy/pasted from a Word doc, and which appeared here with extra line spaces, but because the problem occurs frequently in my group as well: when someone copy/pastes a Word doc into a message, the formatting is often all screwed up, including, but not necessarily limited to, the addition of extra line (or paragraph) breaks. I don't know if anything can be done about this, but will remain hopeful.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

J,

But in some seemingly random subset, extra paragraph breaks
appeared in the gio version.
The paragraph breaks appeared in your email message, as created with GROUPS.IO Web Poster. But it likely got them from your word document.

The paragraph breaks are present in Gmail and Thunderbird but don't create extra spacing because the HTML paragraph elements are marked to specify zero extra space.

The bug / limitation is that Groups.io's web presentation apparently ignores those parameters and applies its own inter-paragraph spacing.

Shal


 

Shal,
Yes, I get all of that. I was responding to Ken's helpful suggestion of how to get around it, and how that's not really going to help me or my group members. The (seeming) randomness is that I certainly don't remember doing anything different between lines that got the extra spaces (paragraph breaks) and the ones that didn't.
Thanks.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

The root of the problem is Word itself. Back before M$ Word, the predominant 'professional' word processing program was WordPerfect. It was (and still is) a clean, solid program that does what one expects it to do. When Bill Gates came along and decided to build up Micro$oft, he had to have an office suite so he bought an existing program and had his people soup it up. But it had, and still has a lot of strange quirks and failings. He sold it by telling people that it was the only word processing program that would work with M$ Explorer. That wasn't true, but that, combined with the 'first version is free' trick, it convinced enough people back in the 'dark ages' of personal computing that it became the dominant word processor.

It has a number of failings, some of which have been enumerated here. One thing I've found is that Word leaves a lot of trash in it's files. Any coding that was put in and not removed in exactly the same way is still in it. As a long-time and continuing WordPerfect user I'm used to WP's 'RevealCodes' function which shows a version of the displayed document below the WYSYWYG version, and shows all the embedded codes. (M$ said years ago they were going to add this, but they still haven't been able to make it happen.) On may occasions I could take a Word document that wasn't working right, open it in WP and remove the redundant and troublesome codes, and then resave it as a Word document.

Because of problems like this, and the desire to use the reader's own preferred fonts and sizes, I set my groups for plain text. That gets rid of those problems and lets the reader use his preferred fonts and sizes for their preferred readability. One way to convert it is to copy your document from Word into Notepad and then paste *that* into your message. That will generally strip out the troublesome stuff.

Just my two cents worth.

Dano

----- Original Message -----
Hi J,

It is a Microsoft Word idiosyncrasy. When you press Enter Microsoft Word thinks you want to create a new paragraph. It's the (IMO) stupid default behavior to then put a gap between the two lines and I haven't been able to find a way to go back to the old, normal, word.

If you want to simply put a single line between the two press SHIFT + ENTER rather than just Enter. There are several Macros that will do it automatically for you, but you should be proficient in VB to implement them.

As to the other formatting issues I "believe" it is an Internet thing. We had the same issues when trying to copy a Word outline to Yahoo groups. In order to get a pseudo indent, I had to replace the spaces with a "." (dot or period). Maybe someone who is familiar with the way the Internet handles multiple spaces can answer your question better than I.

Ken


 

All very interesting but it’s still the dominant word processor and people expect it to behave nice even if it doesn’t. And why does gmail, for example, deal with it ok but not gio?

On Sep 1, 2019, at 9:40 PM, D R Stinson <@steeplecab> wrote:

The root of the problem is Word itself. Back before M$ Word, the predominant 'professional' word processing program was WordPerfect. It was (and still is) a clean, solid program that does what one expects it to do. When Bill Gates came along and decided to build up Micro$oft, he had to have an office suite so he bought an existing program and had his people soup it up. But it had, and still has a lot of strange quirks and failings. He sold it by telling people that it was the only word processing program that would work with M$ Explorer. That wasn't true, but that, combined with the 'first version is free' trick, it convinced enough people back in the 'dark ages' of personal computing that it became the dominant word processor.

It has a number of failings, some of which have been enumerated here. One thing I've found is that Word leaves a lot of trash in it's files. Any coding that was put in and not removed in exactly the same way is still in it. As a long-time and continuing WordPerfect user I'm used to WP's 'RevealCodes' function which shows a version of the displayed document below the WYSYWYG version, and shows all the embedded codes. (M$ said years ago they were going to add this, but they still haven't been able to make it happen.) On may occasions I could take a Word document that wasn't working right, open it in WP and remove the redundant and troublesome codes, and then resave it as a Word document.

Because of problems like this, and the desire to use the reader's own preferred fonts and sizes, I set my groups for plain text. That gets rid of those problems and lets the reader use his preferred fonts and sizes for their preferred readability. One way to convert it is to copy your document from Word into Notepad and then paste *that* into your message. That will generally strip out the troublesome stuff.

Just my two cents worth.

Dano


----- Original Message -----
Hi J,

It is a Microsoft Word idiosyncrasy. When you press Enter Microsoft Word thinks you want to create a new paragraph. It's the (IMO) stupid default behavior to then put a gap between the two lines and I haven't been able to find a way to go back to the old, normal, word.

If you want to simply put a single line between the two press SHIFT + ENTER rather than just Enter. There are several Macros that will do it automatically for you, but you should be proficient in VB to implement them.

As to the other formatting issues I "believe" it is an Internet thing. We had the same issues when trying to copy a Word outline to Yahoo groups. In order to get a pseudo indent, I had to replace the spaces with a "." (dot or period). Maybe someone who is familiar with the way the Internet handles multiple spaces can answer your question better than I.

Ken


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

In other words, my groups.io message comes through just fine in gmail, without the extra spaces (paragraph breaks), but not on the group archive.

On Sep 1, 2019, at 10:08 PM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

All very interesting but it’s still the dominant word processor and people expect it to behave nice even if it doesn’t. And why does gmail, for example, deal with it ok but not gio?
On Sep 1, 2019, at 9:40 PM, D R Stinson <@steeplecab> wrote:

The root of the problem is Word itself. Back before M$ Word, the predominant 'professional' word processing program was WordPerfect. It was (and still is) a clean, solid program that does what one expects it to do. When Bill Gates came along and decided to build up Micro$oft, he had to have an office suite so he bought an existing program and had his people soup it up. But it had, and still has a lot of strange quirks and failings. He sold it by telling people that it was the only word processing program that would work with M$ Explorer. That wasn't true, but that, combined with the 'first version is free' trick, it convinced enough people back in the 'dark ages' of personal computing that it became the dominant word processor.

It has a number of failings, some of which have been enumerated here. One thing I've found is that Word leaves a lot of trash in it's files. Any coding that was put in and not removed in exactly the same way is still in it. As a long-time and continuing WordPerfect user I'm used to WP's 'RevealCodes' function which shows a version of the displayed document below the WYSYWYG version, and shows all the embedded codes. (M$ said years ago they were going to add this, but they still haven't been able to make it happen.) On may occasions I could take a Word document that wasn't working right, open it in WP and remove the redundant and troublesome codes, and then resave it as a Word document.

Because of problems like this, and the desire to use the reader's own preferred fonts and sizes, I set my groups for plain text. That gets rid of those problems and lets the reader use his preferred fonts and sizes for their preferred readability. One way to convert it is to copy your document from Word into Notepad and then paste *that* into your message. That will generally strip out the troublesome stuff.

Just my two cents worth.

Dano


----- Original Message -----
Hi J,

It is a Microsoft Word idiosyncrasy. When you press Enter Microsoft Word thinks you want to create a new paragraph. It's the (IMO) stupid default behavior to then put a gap between the two lines and I haven't been able to find a way to go back to the old, normal, word.

If you want to simply put a single line between the two press SHIFT + ENTER rather than just Enter. There are several Macros that will do it automatically for you, but you should be proficient in VB to implement them.

As to the other formatting issues I "believe" it is an Internet thing. We had the same issues when trying to copy a Word outline to Yahoo groups. In order to get a pseudo indent, I had to replace the spaces with a "." (dot or period). Maybe someone who is familiar with the way the Internet handles multiple spaces can answer your question better than I.

Ken



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Bob Bellizzi
 

You don't need Macros to handle this.
A simple way to change the formatting in word is to:
  • Go to the Home Screen which is usually the default.
  • Just above the word "Paragraph" is a vertical double arrow.
    Click that,
  • Use the functions to remove spacing before and after paragraphs (if they are there)
  • Right Click on your Normal font (Just below "View" in the top tool bar).
  • Click "Update Normal to Match Selection".
  • Click File/Save to save that to your default document.

That should set your Normal to default to no extra spacing before and after paragraphs.
--

Bob Bellizzi


 

Well, thanks, Bob, but (a) that's not simple and (b) no way I'm going to instruct all my group members to do that, just in case they want to copy/paste a Word doc into a message. Or is it post ...;) None of these solutions to the Word problem solves the groups.io problem, although all of it is (borderline) interesting...
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Bob Bellizzi
 

Yeah, I know what you mean about Word.  Most people use it like a typewriter which it isn't.
If you want to compose a la typewriter you're better off using Notepad.
There's not much in the way of formatting that has to be cleansed by gio when you copy/paste from Notepad.
--

Bob Bellizzi


 

Sure, and here comes another “yeah but”: yeah but again, not gonna ask my group members to compose using notepad. I think I’m done here because this has gone off in a direction that doesn’t bear on the actual practical problem. Either Mark can dream up a fix or he can’t. Thanks, all.


On Sep 2, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Bob Bellizzi <cdfexec@...> wrote:

Yeah, I know what you mean about Word.  Most people use it like a typewriter which it isn't.
If you want to compose a la typewriter you're better off using Notepad.
There's not much in the way of formatting that has to be cleansed by gio when you copy/paste from Notepad.
--

Bob Bellizzi


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Ken Schweizer
 

Thanks Bob,

I have tried that and Word still inserts a paragraph code that appears to be interpreted as a <cr><lf><lf>

How now brown cow

1.    Without the paragraph code outlined go to pot
the is the second line s/b line 2.

2.     s/b 3

a.    S/B a with two indents

 

I don't know if all of the MS formattings make it to Groups.io or if some gets stripped out on the "way", but most times indenting doesn't follow through to groups.io. I formatted the above as an outline, so we will see.

As you implied MS Word is at best a compatibility disaster, but MS doesn't care.

 

Ken

 

“You do what you can for as long as you can, and when you finally can’t, you do the next best thing. You back up but you don’t give up.” ―Chuck Yeager

 

From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Bellizzi
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 11:58 AM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages #request

 

You don't need Macros to handle this.
A simple way to change the formatting in word is to:

  • Go to the Home Screen which is usually the default.
  • Just above the word "Paragraph" is a vertical double arrow.
    Click that,
  • Use the functions to remove spacing before and after paragraphs (if they are there)
  • Right Click on your Normal font (Just below "View" in the top tool bar).
  • Click "Update Normal to Match Selection".
  • Click File/Save to save that to your default document.

That should set your Normal to default to no extra spacing before and after paragraphs.
--

Bob Bellizzi


Ken Schweizer
 

I am amazed that the formatting followed and didn't insert the extra <LF> here as it hasn't seemed to do that in our group.

 

Ken

 

“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless.

Not to speak is to speak.

Not to act is to act.”

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ken Schweizer
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 11:36 AM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages #request

 

Thanks Bob,

I have tried that and Word still inserts a paragraph code that appears to be interpreted as a <cr><lf><lf>

How now brown cow

1.      Without the paragraph code outlined go to pot
the is the second line s/b line 2.

2.       s/b 3

a.      S/B a with two indents

 

I don't know if all of the MS formattings make it to Groups.io or if some gets stripped out on the "way", but most times indenting doesn't follow through to groups.io. I formatted the above as an outline, so we will see.

As you implied MS Word is at best a compatibility disaster, but MS doesn't care.

 

Ken

 

“You do what you can for as long as you can, and when you finally can’t, you do the next best thing. You back up but you don’t give up.” ―Chuck Yeager

 

From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Bellizzi
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 11:58 AM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages #request

 

You don't need Macros to handle this.
A simple way to change the formatting in word is to:

  • Go to the Home Screen which is usually the default.
  • Just above the word "Paragraph" is a vertical double arrow.
    Click that,
  • Use the functions to remove spacing before and after paragraphs (if they are there)
  • Right Click on your Normal font (Just below "View" in the top tool bar).
  • Click "Update Normal to Match Selection".
  • Click File/Save to save that to your default document.

That should set your Normal to default to no extra spacing before and after paragraphs.
--

Bob Bellizzi