Topics

the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

 

I'm noticing that after the fix to not wrap signatures into ellipses, there will often be a message (like Gerald's in the previous thread) where the entire prior message is quoted at the top, *including the signature*, making the reply look as though it's empty. This seems to be happening frequently. Often I'll read what seems to be a reply to a message, but can't find the reply. It just looks like a repeat of the entire previous message. The reason is that my brain stops scanning for content after seeing a signature.

If the signature could be left out when the entire prior message is quoted at the top of a reply, that would be helpful.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 1:57 PM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
I'm noticing that after the fix to not wrap signatures into ellipses, there will often be a message (like Gerald's in the previous thread) where the entire prior message is quoted at the top, *including the signature*, making the reply look as though it's empty. This seems to be happening frequently. Often I'll read what seems to be a reply to a message, but can't find the reply. It just looks like a repeat of the entire previous message. The reason is that my brain stops scanning for content after seeing a signature.

Are you referring to this message: https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/21883

Currently, we only collapse quoted parts if the quoted part appears at the end (ie. the person top posted). Should we collapse quoted parts in this case as well (ie. only one quoted part and it appears at the top of the message)?

Thanks,
Mark

Duane
 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 04:15 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Should we collapse quoted parts in this case as well (ie. only one quoted part and it appears at the top of the message)?
I wouldn't want to see it operate that way.  As it is now, it's like a question (quote) and answer (reply).

Thanks,
Duane

Sarah k Alawami
 

Iv'e ben notocing that for the past while now. I thought it was just me.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
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On 13 Aug 2019, at 14:14, Mark Fletcher wrote:

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 1:57 PM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
I'm noticing that after the fix to not wrap signatures into ellipses, there will often be a message (like Gerald's in the previous thread) where the entire prior message is quoted at the top, *including the signature*, making the reply look as though it's empty. This seems to be happening frequently. Often I'll read what seems to be a reply to a message, but can't find the reply. It just looks like a repeat of the entire previous message. The reason is that my brain stops scanning for content after seeing a signature.

Are you referring to this message: https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/21883

Currently, we only collapse quoted parts if the quoted part appears at the end (ie. the person top posted). Should we collapse quoted parts in this case as well (ie. only one quoted part and it appears at the top of the message)?

Thanks,
Mark

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 02:15 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Are you referring to this message
Yes, that's the message (and there are others like it frequently). It's hard to read on a phone. Several times I've almost emailed back to say that the message is empty, maybe they should report, etc. Then, belatedly, I look below the sig and find the content.

Should we collapse quoted parts in this case as well (ie. only one quoted part and it appears at the top of the message)?

I think so, yes.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 03:24 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
maybe they should report
typo - repost
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 02:51 PM, Duane wrote:
As it is now, it's like a question (quote) and answer (reply).
But it's nearly impossible to parse that way on a phone. (On the web, it looks completely different.)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

If the responder uses a short quote, as I just did in the last message, then it’s like question-answer. But not if they quote the entire previous message *at the top*, including the signature. This just does not work. In emails, you’re used to seeing the prior message in it’s entirety at the bottom. When you see an entire message at the top, complete with sig, you think *that* is the message. St least, I do.


On Aug 13, 2019, at 3:26 PM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 02:51 PM, Duane wrote:
As it is now, it's like a question (quote) and answer (reply).
But it's nearly impossible to parse that way on a phone. (On the web, it looks completely different.)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

Mark,


Should we collapse quoted parts in this case as well (ie. only one quoted part and it appears at the top of the message)?

I vote yes, given that reading in Topic mode is mostly the default and in that mode the quote duplicates the (or a) message above it. Even for Message mode, opening the ... is no problem.

In Digests eliding a top quote would present no different difficulties than does the current practice of eliding a bottom-quote. Both easily solved by clicking View/Reply Online in the message footer, assuming you're willing to be logged in or it is a group with Public archives.

Shal

Sarah k Alawami
 

I do as well, which is why I don't. It is easier for me to read a short message and not a fully quoted thread.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 13 Aug 2019, at 15:46, J_Catlady wrote:

If the responder uses a short quote, as I just did in the last message, then it’s like question-answer. But not if they quote the entire previous message *at the top*, including the signature. This just does not work. In emails, you’re used to seeing the prior message in it’s entirety at the bottom. When you see an entire message at the top, complete with sig, you think *that* is the message. St least, I do.


On Aug 13, 2019, at 3:26 PM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 02:51 PM, Duane wrote:
As it is now, it's like a question (quote) and answer (reply).
But it's nearly impossible to parse that way on a phone. (On the web, it looks completely different.)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Sarah k Alawami
 

I'd say give that a try and see how we like it. Sounds good to me.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 13 Aug 2019, at 16:01, Shal Farley wrote:

Mark,


Should we collapse quoted parts in this case as well (ie. only one quoted part and it appears at the top of the message)?

I vote yes, given that reading in Topic mode is mostly the default and in that mode the quote duplicates the (or a) message above it. Even for Message mode, opening the ... is no problem.

In Digests eliding a top quote would present no different difficulties than does the current practice of eliding a bottom-quote. Both easily solved by clicking View/Reply Online in the message footer, assuming you're willing to be logged in or it is a group with Public archives.

Shal

 

I think the only change should be to enclose the quote in ellipses only if it’s the the whole prior message quoted at the top or, alternatively, enclose just the sig in ellipses if the quote, whatever it consists of, is at the top. I would not want other cases of quotes at the top to disappear. That would defeat deliberate quoting and answering.


On Aug 13, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I do as well, which is why I don't. It is easier for me to read a short message and not a fully quoted thread.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 13 Aug 2019, at 15:46, J_Catlady wrote:

If the responder uses a short quote, as I just did in the last message, then it’s like question-answer. But not if they quote the entire previous message *at the top*, including the signature. This just does not work. In emails, you’re used to seeing the prior message in it’s entirety at the bottom. When you see an entire message at the top, complete with sig, you think *that* is the message. St least, I do.


On Aug 13, 2019, at 3:26 PM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 02:51 PM, Duane wrote:
As it is now, it's like a question (quote) and answer (reply).
But it's nearly impossible to parse that way on a phone. (On the web, it looks completely different.)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

Hi All,

We now collapse quoted parts in bottom post messages (where the reply comes at the end of the message). 

Cheers,
Mark

 

Uh-oh. Mark, this is exactly what I hoped you wouldn't do! It is now impossible to selectively quote small pieces of text (which used to appear indented) and respond to them. I think this fix went much too far in the opposite direction. It's now useless to quote and respond. 

My complaint referred only to replies which either (a) included the prior message's signature in the quote and/or (b) quoted the entire prior message. Is it possible to selectively apply the fix only to one or both of those situations?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

Not only that! I just tested this with a reply via email, and nothing is collapsed in the email. The same problem I originally brought up here exists, namely: if someone replies via email, and puts their reply entirely below the prior message, the entire prior message shows up first, complete with signature. So the original problem is not fixed when the person replies via email (nothing is collapsed), and when they reply via the web, too much is collapsed. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

J,

I clearly don't quite understand what you're asking for. Can you point to a specific message and tell me exactly how it's not being handled the way you expect? 

Thanks,
Mark

 

J,


It is now impossible to selectively quote small pieces of text (which used to appear indented) and respond to them.

Why would you? you'd be quoting text that was already quoted, not the text of the message you're replying to (if I understand this).

If you must, can you open the ellipsis and select them in the original message, before clicking reply? I have to I haven't sought an example to try this with.

Not only that! I just tested this with a reply via email, and nothing is collapsed in the email.

None of this collapsing of quotes ever applied to Individual emails, nor should it IMO.

Collapsing is for the web interface, eliding in the digest.

Shal

 

Mark,

I'll forward you one to support that I just sent through my test group.

J

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 4:29 PM Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
J,

I clearly don't quite understand what you're asking for. Can you point to a specific message and tell me exactly how it's not being handled the way you expect? 

Thanks,
Mark


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 04:29 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
 
Why would you? you'd be quoting text that was already quoted, not the text of the message you're replying to (if I understand this).
Shal,
I'm talking about doing what you just did in your reply, and what I am doing here by quoting you. But it seems to be working here. It went afoul in my test.

None of this collapsing of quotes ever applied to Individual emails, nor should it IMO.
Ok. I need to retest and rethink. The problem I was trying to describe originally consisted of emails *received* that looked either blank at first glance because they included the entire prior message, complete with signature. Others have noticed this (recent) phenomenon, which seemed to occur only after the fix to not putting a sig into ellipses. I'm no longer sure exactly how to describe the problem. But it is still there and I'm about to send Mark an example at support. If I can, I'll post one here as well.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 

Shal and Mark,

In my example (which I've sent to Mark at support), I replied to a message via the web, in which I copied a line of text to respond to in my reply (just like we have been doing here, where the text shows up indented immediately above the reply). But instead of showing up as text, the blue box appears saying "Show quoted text."

In the email that comes through (as opposed to the web), nothing is collapsed at all. The original problem I brought up here was with reading emails on a small device. When nothing is collapsed, and when the quoted text in the reply consists of the entire original message complete with signature, the reply at first looks blank and is extremely difficult to parse. 

I don't know why quoting and indenting are working here in beta in this thread, but not in my tests. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu