Topics

Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam AUTO-Message suggested modification


 

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 06:58 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
If a Premium or higher owner/Moderator wished to bypass needing the
link thy could,given the necessary permission level, simply re-direct
subscribe the subscriber.
I've done that frequently, but only after going thru the hoops of contacting the member outside the system to make sure they want to stay in.

I don't know whether such re-subscription would "resume" their subscription (keeping their identity and settings intact) or give them a new subscription
I can answer that: it does resume the old subscription and keeps everything intact from before.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Bob,

I doubt your sample would be as valid as a non-technical group's.
The groups in question were non-technical (high-school classmates). As I said though, too small to be a meaningful sample. Alas, I don't seem to have retained the notifications.

You are making assumptions here; So pMY assumption is that Mark was
smarter than that and that the link must be executed on the
SUBSCRIBER's device.
I didn't make any assumption about what Mark might do, I simply pointed out that it is an issue with the proposal.

That said, testing for whether the link was referenced on a given member's device might in the general case be a thornier problem than you imagine, especially in groups like mine where most members have interacted solely by email.

If a Premium or higher owner/Moderator wished to bypass needing the
link thy could,given the necessary permission level, simply re-direct
subscribe the subscriber.
That's a good point.

I don't know whether such re-subscription would "resume" their subscription (keeping their identity and settings intact) or give them a new subscription, but for most email-only members the differences is not important.

Shal


 

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 06:31 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I'm quite sincere in my assertion, and I don't appreciate you impugning my honesty
Shal, I would not, and never meant to impugn your honesty. I  evidently mixed up the two words (with and without prefix, resp.) and ended up screwing up both of them. I only meant that there's really not a good case on either side. I apologize for how that came out.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

J,

... it’s [dis]ingenuous to reassure or surmise that the resubscribe
email might be somehow different and reach these members even though
group emails don’t.
I assure you that I'm quite sincere in my assertion, and I don't appreciate you impugning my honesty. It isn't "might somehow", the distinctions are plain facts; how a given receiving service might use those distinctions is speculative.

I did not state or imply that the resume notice would always get through. I was merely refuting Bob's assertion that it definitely would not.

Shal


 

typo, disingenuous 


On Aug 12, 2019, at 12:11 PM, J_Olivia Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Agree with Bob. There are enough cases of spam-removed members not having received the resubscribe link that it’s ingenuous to reassure or surmise that the resubscribe email might be somehow different and reach these members even though group emails don’t.


On Aug 12, 2019, at 11:44 AM, Bob Bellizzi <cdfexec@...> wrote:

Shal,
My point is that we can't rely on the message to the member that is sent after the spam marking.
Providing the Owners with the appropriate and unique automatic rejoin link would all us the option to alert the (ex)subscriber
if we were so inclined.
In the last month we had 4 dropped via spam and none were recovered 
2 were Yahoo
1 was sbcglobal
1 was bellsouth
In the previous month only 1 was recovered and that was not a domain hosted by Yahoo/Verizon as this months' 4 were.

--

Bob Bellizzi


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Bob Bellizzi
 

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 12:51 PM, Shal Farley wrote: 
In my groups (not counting GMF) I believe I'm 2 for 2 recovered on their own, with no prompting or instruction from me. But that's way too small a sample to be meaningful.
I doubt your sample would be as valid as a non-technical group's.I set up a unique Rejoined mailbox soon after 
set up the function.I ca easily provide stats for most any period since then.

"I do think there's a technical problem with your suggestion in terms of assuring that only the member in question uses the link. Absent that assurance Mark may as well give owners a control to re-instate the member unilaterally. But that's a decision for Mark to make."
 
You are making assumptions here;  So pMY assumption is that Mark was smarter than that and that the link must be executed on the SUBSCRIBER's device.

If a Premium or higher owner/Moderator wished to bypass needing the link thy could,given the necessary permission level,
simply re-direct subscribe the subscriber.

-- x

Bob Bellizzi


 

Agree with Bob. There are enough cases of spam-removed members not having received the resubscribe link that it’s ingenuous to reassure or surmise that the resubscribe email might be somehow different and reach these members even though group emails don’t.


On Aug 12, 2019, at 11:44 AM, Bob Bellizzi <cdfexec@...> wrote:

Shal,
My point is that we can't rely on the message to the member that is sent after the spam marking.
Providing the Owners with the appropriate and unique automatic rejoin link would all us the option to alert the (ex)subscriber
if we were so inclined.
In the last month we had 4 dropped via spam and none were recovered 
2 were Yahoo
1 was sbcglobal
1 was bellsouth
In the previous month only 1 was recovered and that was not a domain hosted by Yahoo/Verizon as this months' 4 were.

--

Bob Bellizzi


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Bob,


My point is that we can't rely on the message to the member that is sent after the spam marking.

I wasn't arguing against your suggestion on that grounds, merely addressing your broad overstatement of facts, lest someone have the impression that the notice seldom or never gets through to the member.
Providing the Owners with the appropriate and unique automatic rejoin link would all us the option to alert the (ex)subscriber if we were so inclined.

You don't need the link to simply alert them, as you and J already do.

I do think there's a technical problem with your suggestion in terms of assuring that only the member in question uses the link. Absent that assurance Mark may as well give owners a control to re-instate the member unilaterally. But that's a decision for Mark to make.

In the last month we had 4 dropped via spam and none were recovered 

In my groups (not counting GMF) I believe I'm 2 for 2 recovered on their own, with no prompting or instruction from me. But that's way too small a sample to be meaningful.
Shal


Bob Bellizzi
 

Shal,
My point is that we can't rely on the message to the member that is sent after the spam marking.
Providing the Owners with the appropriate and unique automatic rejoin link would all us the option to alert the (ex)subscriber
if we were so inclined.
In the last month we had 4 dropped via spam and none were recovered 
2 were Yahoo
1 was sbcglobal
1 was bellsouth
In the previous month only 1 was recovered and that was not a domain hosted by Yahoo/Verizon as this months' 4 were.

--

Bob Bellizzi


 

Bob,


Maybe, could be, might be isn't good enough, Shal.
This sounds like guessing and that's not a good enough answer.
 
There is absolutely no way to guarantee the delivery of an email message (except within your own domain). Beyond that one can only guess what the receiving system will do with the message.

Which is to say nothing about guaranteeing that a recipient will notice or read the message, even if delivered to his/her Inbox.

Shal


Bob Bellizzi
 

Maybe, could be, might be isn't good enough, Shal.
This sounds like guessing and that's not a good enough answer.
--

Bob Bellizzi


 

Patty, you don’t send thru the owner address. It was the next person in the thread who said they did that. Can’t remember now who it was.


On Aug 12, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Patty Sliney via Groups.Io <hoosierquilt@...> wrote:

But in that case, the provider will definitely reject any messages from groups.io.  So sending a message through Owner won't ever reach the subscriber.
Bob, we don't send a message through Owner.  As I mentioned, we send a manual email from our own personal email addresses to circumvent the now "marked as spam" issue.

Patty S.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

It happened just 2 days ago that a member was spam-removed from my group and never got the resubscrbe email. This happens all the time, “distinct” or not. I finally contacted her today from personal email (prodded by the discussion here, actually - I’d formerly given up doing that) and she wanted to get back in. She’d never received the link.

On Aug 11, 2019, at 10:13 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

Bob,

... they may or may not notify the subscriber.
Almost certainly not, other than by showing the Spam (Junk) folder as holding unread messages.

But in that case, the provider will definitely reject any messages
from groups.io.
You probably mean quarantine (deliver to the Spam folder) rather than reject ("bounce"). But either result is far from certain. A notice from Groups.io is technically distinct from a group posting in many ways which may be significant to an inbound service's spam filter. On the whole it may be much more likely to be delivered to the member's Inbox.

Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Patty Sliney
 

Doug, I also sent out a very similar "what happens if you mark a message as spam" auto email every month as well.  Either my list members don't bother to read that message, or they have difficulties understanding.  Either way, the auto email hasn't made much of a difference.  I still get one to several auto unsubs every week.  It is better now, than when we first transferred over, but I still get auto unsubs, and even "repeat offenders". 

They can re-apply, but then they've lost their personal message history.  Which, I suppose those list members may not appreciate or understand, so guess that's moot.


Patty Sliney
 

But in that case, the provider will definitely reject any messages from groups.io.  So sending a message through Owner won't ever reach the subscriber.
Bob, we don't send a message through Owner.  As I mentioned, we send a manual email from our own personal email addresses to circumvent the now "marked as spam" issue.

Patty S.


Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 01:54 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Exactly. It has to be from a personal email address.
 
 I frankly got tired of doing it and at this point, I just let people go. It is still definitely a problem here.
It certainly seems to be at, or near the top of the list of ongoing complaints.

What was wrong with the idea of setting the subscriber's account to web only viewing of posts? 

Was there any feedback as to the success record of getting subs back and not having them be repeat offenders?

In addition to just asking somewhat related questions, I am also going to offer a suggestion more directly related to the topic line. Perhaps GROUPS.IO could obtain a third party email address/domain to send the Auto-Message notifications. On the other hand, J's solution may end up being the best answer in the end.
 
--
Gerald


 

Bob,

... they may or may not notify the subscriber.
Almost certainly not, other than by showing the Spam (Junk) folder as holding unread messages.

But in that case, the provider will definitely reject any messages
from groups.io.
You probably mean quarantine (deliver to the Spam folder) rather than reject ("bounce"). But either result is far from certain. A notice from Groups.io is technically distinct from a group posting in many ways which may be significant to an inbound service's spam filter. On the whole it may be much more likely to be delivered to the member's Inbox.

Shal


 

Exactly. It has to be from a personal email address.

 I frankly got tired of doing it and at this point, I just let people go. It is still definitely a problem here.


On Aug 11, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Bob Bellizzi <cdfexec@...> wrote:

If their service provider, instead of the subscriber, marked the msg as spam, they may or may not notify the subscriber.
But in that case, the provider will definitely reject any messages from groups.io.  So sending a message through Owner won't ever reach the subscriber.
We also keep all members of our genetic disease advocacy group informed about what happens but, as an example a member recently asked to be reinstated on August 9,2019 after being unsubscribed on May 21, 2019.  The member was on Daily digest and we are a busy group.  Somehow they didn't notice roughly 50 missing digests.
Do they pay attention to what we write?  I don't think so.
--   

Bob Bellizzi


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Bob Bellizzi
 

If their service provider, instead of the subscriber, marked the msg as spam, they may or may not notify the subscriber.
But in that case, the provider will definitely reject any messages from groups.io.  So sending a message through Owner won't ever reach the subscriber.
We also keep all members of our genetic disease advocacy group informed about what happens but, as an example a member recently asked to be reinstated on August 9,2019 after being unsubscribed on May 21, 2019.  The member was on Daily digest and we are a busy group.  Somehow they didn't notice roughly 50 missing digests.
Do they pay attention to what we write?  I don't think so.
--   

Bob Bellizzi


Douglas Swearingen
 

In my group I am co-owner of, I have very little problem with this.  The group is a chronic pain group, so these members have many problems with pain.  I send out a reminder at the beginning of each month from the owners email address to all the members reminding them of what happens if they delete a e-mail from groups.io from their spam folder.  If they do this, I send an e-mail asking if they really want to leave the group.  In the email sent out the 1st of each month I tell them to look for a link to resubscribe.  Since this is a private group they can always reapply for membership and their request will be immediately processed.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Doug


From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> on behalf of Patty Sliney via Groups.Io <hoosierquilt@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2019 8:35 AM
To: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [beta] Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam AUTO-Message suggested modification #featurerequest
 
Yup, Bob.  I mentioned this some time ago to Mark: That auto email to instantly restore their membership will most likely never been seen by the removed member because it is now being routed as well to that list member's Spam folder. No real options were ever suggested, more of a, "well, this is just the way it has to be, because we're a small platform, and the email programs/ISP just don't know about us."  So, myself and my list mods are now forced to send unsubbed list members a manual email from our personal email accounts that states the following:

You were automatically unsubscribed by Groups.io from our <name of group> list on Groups.io because either you or your email program/ISP marked one of our list messages as spam.  Most likely, you emptied your Spam folder and didn't check the emails prior to emptying that folder. By doing that, you could have accidentally told your email program and/or ISP that our Groups.io emails are spam.  So, be SURE to check your Spam/Junk folder very carefully before just emptying it, for our list emails, and mark them as "NOT SPAM", please.  Sometimes it is nothing a list member does, but their ISP does.

The good news is, you were JUST send an auto re-subscription email from groups.io.  You have 7 days to click on the link in that email, to restore your membership.  Please be sure to look in your Spam folder, as well as your inbox for that email.  Click on the link in the email, and you will be instantly restored as a list member.


I am still not a fan of this method of managing Blacklisting/Whitelisting.  There is no other group I'm on, on any other platform (big or small) that uses this method to manage their Blacklisting issues.  For my groups, most of my list members are not particularly computer-savvy, so we lose members through this process.  Not all get themselves re-subscribed, some don't even see our message until after the link expiration, and then we have to spend time asking them to send in a new membership request.  I feel like this is an awful lot of uncessary work for list owners/mods.  Not the best system, and a strange one in my opinion.

Patty S.